Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

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decoykrvr
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Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by decoykrvr »

I sparingly hunt several areas which still contain populations of the "old" Eastern strain of turkeys which had survived prior to the stocking and introduction of the "Missouri strain" and still, due to their location/isolation have maintained their genetics. These turkeys look more like Osceolas w/ long legs, dark plumage and smaller body size. I've killed 3 and 4 year old "mountain" gobblers w/ 1 3/8" dagger spurs which weighed 14-15 pounds, and the hens are really small like Osceolas. I'd discussed these isolated populations w/ Lovett Williams, Jr. a few years before he died, and at that time he acknowledged the existence of a few pockets of the "old strain" Easterns, but was primarily concerned about "genetic encroachment" into areas containing Oceolas especially in the northern areas of their range. As a former professional biologists, I value the observations of hunters who are in the field and your insights would be appreciated.
Last edited by decoykrvr on August 25th, 2018, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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guesswho
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by guesswho »

I personally saw several Osceolas in boxes in the back of a FGFWFC truck in the early 70's in Avon Park Florida leaving the management area. I'd estimate 12-15. The head GW at APBR at the time was named Glenn Ivey. He told me those turkeys had been captured and were on their way to TN. Florida traded them for some deer with TN. If it's a lie, it's the Game Wardens. This was prior to the N"WTF".
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RapscallionVermilion
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by RapscallionVermilion »

Herb McClure’s book Native Turkeys is an interesting read about remaining pockets of pre restocking populations in the North Georgia mountains. He describes them as looking quite different from the restocked birds.

From the book description:

“... master hunter and woodsman Herb McClure of Cleveland, Georgia. Native Turkeys-the name old-timers gave to the original pure strain of wild turkeys-traces the history and characteristics of these wary birds in North Georgia's mountains long before the state began its stocking efforts and held its first turkey hunting season. “
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MKW
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by MKW »

There are also small, Osceola-looking turkeys in the swamps of SC. In fact, they look more like Osceolas than many that come from below the "money line".
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GLS
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by GLS »

I shot this bird about 80 miles north of the Florida line in a 280,000 acre tract of lowcountry land a few years ago. Note the primaries.
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coconut
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by coconut »

People have stocked there on before nwtf and state game agencies got in bed together
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youngoutdoors
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by youngoutdoors »

I hunt some areas in the Va mountians that have the old original strain of the native bird. These birds are alot "wilder" in behavior. Smaller in weight, taller, and generally blacker plumage overall. Sometimes you run across birds around home that just seem stupid. You can move and do all sorts of things; not with the native strain birds. The old strain birds have zero tolerance for movement and zero curiosity.

They are tougher to hunt but I love em that much more.

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trkykilr
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by trkykilr »

I killed a turkey in 2013 in the Wateree river swamp in SC. He may have weighed 12 pounds and was very short. He had a full thick 11-3/4” beard, 1-3/4” spurs and gobbled like an absolute freight train. Image
Image

I have a picture of him hanging from a limb that I’ll dig up. It’s shocking how short he is.

I’ve always heard tales of the “old strain” or “old Mossy heads”. I not a biologist, but I’ve examined a lot of easterns and never seen one like that.
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GobbleNut
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by GobbleNut »

When discussing purity of subspecies, it all comes down to isolation of genetics over time. The isolation that caused the creation of the recognized five subspecies was a function of geographic isolation over thousands of years. Once that isolation is eliminated, the process of hybridization is like two colors of paint being poured next to each other in a bowl. They gradually begin to mix in with each other, and over time, the bowl will be mostly a mix of the two colors. The shorter the time in the bowl, however, the more the distant edges of the paint retain their true colors.

The same principal applies to genetics within subspecies. Once the barrier is broken so that the genetics are able to mix, the genetic flow will begin at the close edges and work toward the distant edges. Are there areas of the country where the mixing that has taken place in the last fifty years or so,... since "man" decided to stir up the paint,... not progressed enough to eliminate particular genetic attributes within a subspecies? I would feel pretty confident in saying yes to that.

However, genetic purity should not be confused with localized populations of turkeys that exhibit physical/appearance differences. Those are a function of the relative presence of dominant/recessive gene characteristics, or even genetic "mutations" within a population of turkeys that become more and more apparent over time.

In the various examples given, they are caused by one or the other, or maybe even a combination of both. In any case where a small group of one subspecies of turkeys has been "dropped" into the center of another subspecies (like a drop of one color of paint into the center of another color), the genetic purity of the "drop" will quickly be gone in a generation or two, as will the surrounding edges of the other subspecies. On the other hand, an isolated population of turkeys that has had no introductions of other birds near them may retain the unique characteristics that may have developed in that area due to genetic isolation.

That uniqueness of specific populations of birds is probably pretty common in various places across the country, but it is gradually falling by the wayside. Generally speaking, in terms of keeping the overall purity of any of the five species in the U.S., that "horse has dun left the barn", fellers. We have went and stirred up the paint too much already. It's only a matter of time until the colors are mostly the same. But, hey, we got a lot of turkeys to hunt now! :mrgreen:
MAK
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by MAK »

Interesting discussion I have a buddy here in PA, who hunts a particular area / flock birds with mossy heads and black legs - he claims they are original easterns

Smaller birds in general thick beards and big hooks
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by Fatmo »

MKW wrote: August 24th, 2018, 5:12 pm There are also small, Osceola-looking turkeys in the swamps of SC. In fact, they look more like Osceolas than many that come from below the "money line".
I believe I heard of Lovett and the FWC transferring birds to SC. back in the 70s.
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MKW
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by MKW »

As a side note...I have noticed that the gobbles of these types of turkeys seems to be much more high-pitched and shrill. Any of yall notice that??
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by crenshawco »

I killed this one in south Alabama last year. Double beard too.

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MKW
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by MKW »

This is the wing of the "Swamp Midget" (that's what I call them) I killed last season. Killed him north of Charleston. He was in the 12lb range, double beard, spurs about 1&1/8", and a high pitched shrill gobble. It seems that I kill one of these Swamp Midgets at least every other season.
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decoykrvr
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by decoykrvr »

Several years ago, I discussed the "native/mountain" turkeys w/ Lovett Williams, Jr. and we were both in agreement w/ the observations of GobbleNut concerning hybridization within the subspecies. Dr. Williams was very concerned about the encroachment of the Eastern wild turkey gene pool into Florida and the consequences to the resident Osceola populations. Recent developments in karyotyping are shedding light on the genetic differentiation within species based, in part, upon geographic location/isolation, but which is also identifiable within migrating bird populations which maintain specific breeding grounds. Dr. Williams hypothesized that the surviving populations of the original "native/mountain" Eastern wild turkeys exist because they are in remote areas which were either not stocked w/transplanted turkeys because of the difficulty in stocking some areas, the preexisting presence of a wild turkey population which precluded stocking, or possibly both. It's refreshing to hear that there are still pockets of the "native/mountain" Eastern wild turkeys and hopefully they will maintain their viability. I too, have observed the higher/sharper pitch of the gobbles, as noted by others, and a hunting friend commented one day in the mountains, while hunting the "mountain" gobblers, "They run around the woods like rats!"
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GobbleNut
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by GobbleNut »

Very interesting discussion. With the increasing advances in DNA analysis, it would be really interesting to see what genetic differences/variations exist in these isolated pockets of turkeys that still exist. I suppose its just a matter of time until someone has a "wild hair" to get into the turkey ancestry business just like that going on with us humans over the last few years. Pretty soon we will be able to see what the "lineage" is of the last turkey we killed somewhere.

I can just see it now,...."your gobbler is 1/2 Eastern of the original lineage of the area, 1/8 Osceola from the Florida to SC transplant of 1972, 1/4 Eastern from the Missouri transplant of 1988, and the other 1/8th is apparently the result of a one-night stand of the brood hen with a wandering Rio gobbler." :lol:
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by decoykrvr »

A recent discussion w/ one of the game bird biologists in Nebraska, where I try to hunt when possible was, in some ways, sadly informative. His observation was that of the three subspecies which exist in the state, there are probably no pure strains of Easterns, Merriams, or Rios, and that all wild turkeys in the state are hybrids, which I fear is a harbinger of things to come. I began turkey hunting during the infancy of turkey restocking after the abbismal failures of stocking semi-domestic turkeys, and I guess we are fortunate that these early efforts were such a failure because the wild turkeys which I pursue today are anything but domestic and, although I have seen the decline of quail during my hunting lifetime, the current state of the populations of turkeys, deer, and ducks, especially Wood Ducks, are a testament to the dedication and the various State Game & Fish Departments nationwide.
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by Hoobilly »

GobbleNut wrote: August 25th, 2018, 6:22 pm Very interesting discussion. With the increasing advances in DNA analysis, it would be really interesting to see what genetic differences/variations exist in these isolated pockets of turkeys that still exist. I suppose its just a matter of time until someone has a "wild hair" to get into the turkey ancestry business just like that going on with us humans over the last few years. Pretty soon we will be able to see what the "lineage" is of the last turkey we killed somewhere.

I can just see it now,...."your gobbler is 1/2 Eastern of the original lineage of the area, 1/8 Osceola from the Florida to SC transplant of 1972, 1/4 Eastern from the Missouri transplant of 1988, and the other 1/8th is apparently the result of a one-night stand of the brood hen with a wandering Rio gobbler." :lol:
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Have had a cousin and a nephew have them DNA tests done. One showed AmericanIndian blood and the other didn't. Nephew should have had that show up in his DNA, but nope. and when asked about it, they told him its not 100% accurate????
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LAturkey
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by LAturkey »

I called in a rio in West Texas this past spring for my cousin that had very dark primaries, 1 3/8 spurs and weighed about 15 pounds which is small for that area. I have also seen a few birds from south west MS that are darker and smaller than normal. The few turkeys we have left in Louisiana are generally darker and do not get as big, at least the ones I’ve killed. I believe this is just a difference in appearance as you move around the country and not a different strain of turkey. If you look at deer in Florida compared to the in Canada they look very different but we still call them whitetail deer? I think they’re are visual differences that do evelove over time as turkeys live in certain areas for long periods of time but I do not think that all of the turkeys that have different traits are their own strain, I could be extremely wrong though.
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by quavers16 »

I have Herb McClures book- Native Turkeys and a Georgia Mountain Turkey Hunter. Get this book! You will finish it fast at workbreaks. He has photos of these blacker then normal wild Turkeys. A bit smaller also. Great Book!!!
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by Jamey »

Jim "GobbleNut" Bates nailed it IMO. I do believe the southeast and Atlantic coastal east was widely populated with what we now call the Osceola turkey and once mostly eliminated, the land was re-stocked with what we now call the Eastern turkey. We kill plenty of Osceola looking turkeys here in SW GA and I believe Herb's mountain turkeys are simply a hold out of the old Osceola population that survived over time. They will all mix and blend soon enough...There are no boundaries to stop that from happening.
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by GLS »

Years ago there was an old turkey range map which depicted a hybrid (intergrade?) region of Eastern and Osceola mix in northern Florida up into Georgia.
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by firedup »

Back in the days before trap and transfer (pre 80's here in WV) if you wanted to hunt turkeys in my neck of the woods you went to the eastern WV mountains along the border with VA (and over into VA). That area certainly held native birds. I heard that some of those birds were trapped and moved to other parts of the state as well by Wayne Bailey and crew. I would think some of those genetics are still to be found but with so much "transferring" I would doubt a true strain still exists.
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Re: Eastern "Mountain" turkeys

Post by GobbleNut »

GLS wrote: August 26th, 2018, 8:37 pm Years ago there was an old turkey range map which depicted a hybrid (intergrade?) region of Eastern and Osceola mix in northern Florida up into Georgia.
At this point in time, I suspect that if a map was put together that truly showed "pure" subspecies populations in relation to hybridized populations, there would be a lot of areas where pure subspecies genetics would be pretty small and isolated compared to the hybridized areas. The days of holding a gobbler in hand and looking him over and stating that he is one subspecies or another are rapidly fading,...and in some regions of the country, are gone forever.
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