Flintlock fowler with TSS for turkeys

[Rocklock]

I've been shooting #7 Federal HW in my 20 gauge fowler, and I've taken a couple turkeys with it. There is no choke, and I do not want one, so even with the pellet count of 330 in the 1 1/2oz load I'm using, it gets pretty thin past 30 yards. Several shots again today at 40 yards gave me a 54% pattern at 40 yds. I was wondering if those of you with #9 TSS experience could tell me if it will give me a similar pattern percentage at 40 yds. If so, I think I may have to get some to try, because 54% would almost double the number of shot in my 30" pattern..... Also I am only moving these 1 1/2oz loads at a little over 1150fps. The #7 Fed HW get 100% penetration at 40 yards on can lids, so I assume the #9 TSS would have enough energy as well?

[GLS]

Beautiful gun. Did you make it?
Here's a couple of threads on BP and TSS. The 9's or 9.5's should be more than enough to do the job in your fowler at 40 yards. We are mostly 10" at 40 yards centric with a minimum of 100 in the circle. Any idea what your 10" ring count is with the 7's??
Here ya’ go.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12637&p=136003#p136003
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10559

[Rocklock]

Thanks GLS, I did build the fowler. I looked all over the site for blackpowder posts, and most of what I have seen deal with choked guns. I've found over the years of handloading shotshells that bismuth is different than lead, is different than steel, is different than Federal HW, etc. I'm mostly curious if the TSS18 in #9 will pattern tighter or looser than Federal HW15 in #7, (pattern percentage-wise). I've read a lot on this forum, and just recently joined. Very impressed with the knowledge and experience the good folks here have.

[Rocklock]

Sorry I missed the 10" ring question. I just checked, and I am averaging 27 hits in the 10" at 40 yards with the Fed HW #7. That's why I limit my shots to 30 yards and under. At 30 yards it's over double the hits I get at 40. Pellet distribution is very even over the 30" from 20 yards to 40 with the cylinder bore, there isn't any "dense core" to be had. That's why I'm thinking of trying to increase overall pattern density by going with the #9 TSS.

[swampchicken]

I would load 9.5s in it at 1150fps should be just fine at 40yds.

[Rocklock]

How many TSS #9.5s are there in 1 1/2oz?

[crenshawco]

630

[crenshawco]

That's a beautiful gun by the way

[Rocklock]

630!!!! Holy cow!!! Might just have to try 9's and 9.5's. Thanks for the reply crenshawco, and thanks for the gun comment

[Rocklock]

Still trying to wrap my head around this whole TSS thing..... I handloaded for my 2 3/4" twelve gauge cartridge shotgun for years with a 1 3/8oz load of copper plated #5 lead. 79% pattern at 40 yards gave me 182 hits in 30", and bagged quite a few birds with that. Total pellets in that load was only 230. How much muzzle velocity is necessary for a TSS #9.5 to match the energy/penetration of a lead #5 launched at 1200fps??

[swampchicken]

The guys with the KPY programs could answer the question about 5 lead vs 9 tss. All I can tell you is a #9 tss at 1200fps will kill at 70 yds all day long. Pretty sure you will run out of pattern density before you run out of killing power with the gun you have. It is a very nice looking shotgun by the way.

[Spuriosity]

"How much muzzle velocity is necessary for a TSS #9.5 to match the energy/penetration of a lead #5 launched at 1200fps??"

Answer: Lead 5s penetrate 1.89" @ 40 yds when launched at 1200 fps. KPY shows 1130 fps for TSS 9.5s to penetrate as deeply. The small TSS pellets cannot match the energy of the lead 5s due to much lighter mass, but will penetrate as deeply at that speed due to their increased density and decreased frontal area. And that is indeed a beautiful gun.

[GLS]

I don't believe 9 or 9.5's will tighten the your core, but you will at least double the hits. With the 7's, are you getting a lot of body hits? Muzzle velocity being equal, the penetration of TSS9 compared with lead #4 is slightly superior at 50 yards. With choked guns, we strive for neck and head hits. Amazingly, the 9's will break the largest bones of a Tom and go through a bird often embedding inside the skin on the far side. You will most likely gain rather than lose performance with 9's. Gil

[Rocklock]

Thanks for all of the replies, you guys are great! If my math is correct, I am shooting the Fed HW #7 with 330 pellets in the load, and getting an average of 177 hits in 30" at 40 yards, This is 54%. If I even get %50 from 1 1/2oz of #9 TSS at the same range, I'd have over 100 more hits in the 30", and to me that is awesome. I cannot create a dense center core without a choke, so body hits are going to happen. Very close birds could be "fringed" to minimize the body damage. The 9.5's interest me, but I do like a little energy along with penetration and that has me leaning toward the #9's....

[howl]

Now that is doing it with style!

[Turkinator]

What are you currently using in your loads? Wads , shotcup, over shot? Beautiful gun!!!

[Rocklock]

I have tried virtually everything down the bore that fits, lol. I got true full choke patterns while playing with Federal Flitecontrol wads. They had to be shaved just a tad to fit my bore, and then re-stuffed just the way they came out of the federal hulls. My first shot at the pattern paper left a single 20 gauge hole at 40 yards. Seems that at black powder pressure I needed to take the old razor knife and pre-open all the wad petals. What I had not tested was what would happen if this load was left in the gun for a week or so during the season. Cost me a nice longbeard las fall when the petals failed to open at all. 25 yards and sent a 20 gauge slug past his beak. Looked in the leaf litter for a while and finally found the wad.....decided I was done with that combo. CSD20's fit perfectly, and open evenly and reliably for me with 4 slits cut to just above the vents. 70gn FFF Goex, 1/8" OP card (Circle Fly), 2 1/8" lubed felt wads (Ox Yoke), CSD20 wad filled flush to the top with Federal HW15 #7's, and 1 thin OS card (Circle Fly). As a heads up, the BP PT2090 wads don't even come close to fitting in my bore, (too big).

[Reloader]

I've found with TSS in larger ED or fixed choke guns, that larger pellets tend to spread less. I would buy a pound of 7/7.5s or 8s as the smallest if I was shooting an fixed choke bbl.

[Shooter]

I've found with TSS in larger ED or fixed choke guns, that larger pellets tend to spread less. I would buy a pound of 7/7.5s or 8s as the smallest if I was shooting an fixed choke bbl.

This is Fact!

[appalachianassassin]

beautiful gun man

[GLS]

It sounds as if you want to avoid choking the gun and leave it as close to spec as possible to the period the fowler was designed. However if you decide to choke it tighter, there is a way to do it as was done pre-fixed choke days of barrel making. The technique is "jug choking" wherein a small section of the barrel at the muzzle end is overbored leaving an inch or two at the muzzle intact. The load spreads at the overbored section and constricts when entering the intact section at muzzle's end. This has the effect of tightening the load. Of course you could always have a choke sleeved in or screwed in at the end, but that may not suit your desires if I read between the lines correctly.

[Waddle Whacker]

Yep...beautiful. Please keep us posted on this. Interested to see your results with tungsten.

[Matt / PA]

I thought I was the only one considering this.....
I have 3 pounds of #9 TSS coming for exactly this purpose. My fowler has a a 38" Colerain turkey choked barrel and I plan to basically build a shotshell wad column inside the bore.
I can short start the 20ga wads past the .580 constriction on mine and I have no reason to believe that properly gas sealed at the base that it won't throw up some impressive patterns.
Been using 1 5/8 oz nickle plated #5.5's and going to the same weight #9 TSS load will well more than double my pellet count.
I'm thinking given some of the .580 range choke patterns I've seen posted for 1 5/8oz loads that similar patterns might be realistic.....just need to find the right loading process and velocity.
We should stay in touch with our findings.......

[Rocklock]

Beautiful fowler! What wad are you able to get past the choke? I've found that the plastic wads don't provide a good gas seal for me without either a card wad or a pair of ox-yoke lubed felt wads under them. I have ordered some #9 TSS to try, when it arrives I'll post the results

[Matt / PA]

Thanks! Yours as well.
I am using the 3" 20ga CDS wads from BPI......I notch the bottom a bit to give them a bit of relief when squeezed and using my short starter I can whack them past the choke no problem.
Because the sliced petals overlap considerably in the choked area when loading, I have to shove the wad down beyond the start of the choke taper with a small diameter hollow tube......I plan to leave it in the wad and pour the shot through the tube into the wad directly vs just dumping them down the bore to avoid any chance a pellet or 2 getting behind the plastic and against the barrel wall.
I am going to seal it up at the base with a couple thin overshot cards to protect the powder from any lube, a 1/8" nitro card and then a lubed wool wad ahead of that and against the plastic to complete the seal.
It's all a theory at this point until I have the TSS in hand......to this point I've been using the nickle plated #5.5 lead without a plastic shot cup. I haven't put it all to the test yet, I have been short starting wads and just yanking them back out to see what i can and can't do......Maybe this weekend I will load em up with some lead just to see how they do in anticipation of getting the expensive TSS.