Gobbler Age

[ICDEDTURKES]

The 2.25 spur thread got me to thinking.. We have all seen the charts aging a bird to 4 via the chart.. But is there any true way to age a gobbler past 3? Putting geography and terrain differences aside..

I have spurs that are 1 1/8 that are not very sharp and straight.. Yet on the other hand I have spurs that are 1 1/8 that dang near form a semi circle and are razor sharp. Is it genetics for some birds to grow straighter spurs or are younger where on the other hand the bird with 1 1 1/8 razor sharp super curved spurs have reached their spur peak and may be much older than what a chart would determine..

Another thing I have noticed.. The birds I have killed and handled with 1.5 or better tend to have less circumference or mass to the spurs and most start somewhat small and come to a razor point.. Whereas on the other hand most of the spurs I have in the 1 1/4 range tend to be fatter with less hook and less sharpness at the point.. Do some turkeys spur production production go more to the circumference and thus plateau at the 1 1/4 range whereas some birds have longer narrower spurs, thus the longer spurs?

Also these forums have questioned my thoughts on a two year old.. Alot of guys post up a bird with 3/4-7/8 inch spurs that have a "shark tooth" look to them and call them a 3 year old.. I have always considered these a 2 yr old as it has been rare I have seen a longbeard with less..

Not that any of this truly matters because anytime I flip over a bird with sharp curved spurs or 1 1/4 spurs I consider him a accomplishment but just curious as to some others thoughts on the above..

[drenalinld]

you have to pull their jaw teeth to get accurate age.....lol

Good questions. My thoughts are, spurs can be as different as any other part of a bird. There are tendencies in areas that can be good indicators, but there will always be anomalies and exceptions. I do know I want all of the long ones I can get my hands on!

[Gobbler]

This is a subject that can't be answered unless you band the turkey or keep him in a pen. Unless you definitely establish his first year alive I don't think the spur is a way to age him. I think it helps but is not fool proof.

[Hoobilly]

Roost bone is the closest thing to tell age that I know....

a local "taxi dermust" showed me the roost bone on my 2nd and so far biggest tom. He showed me roost bones from a jake , 2 & 3 year old gobblers. He thought mine had to be 4 years or older. It looked like a softball it was so big n round. The joe and 2 year old looked like pingpong balls and the 3 year old was in between.

When I see big gobblers I feel the roost bone and show others what to look for. but its not just the age.....its the spurs, beard and hunt!

[TRKYHTR]

I killed a turkey last spring that I know was at least 6 years old. I had seen him 4 years prior and he was at least a 2 year old. He was the first longbeard I ever saw near my house. He roosted with several of his girlfriends about 300 yards from my back door. I watched him for 4 years and never hunted him. I decided last year he was old enough. There were also now 4 longbeards in the group and 6 jakes. He had 1 1/4" sharp spurs. I mounted him hanging upside down on a limb, by his spurs. So to answer your question. I think it is alot like deer. They definately need age to get long and sharp but genetics have alot to do with it. I think if he would have lived to be 10 years old he would have had 1 1/4" spurs. Maybe a little sharper and more curved. I also say BS to those who believe in dull spurs near rocky terrain. I've never seen a turkey hit it's spurs on rocks. Thats just not feasible. I've got a rooster chicken that has 2" spurs and we have rocks where I live.

[Gobbler]

Roost bone is the closest thing to tell age that I know....

a local "taxi dermust" showed me the roost bone on my 2nd and so far biggest tom. He showed me roost bones from a jake , 2 & 3 year old gobblers. He thought mine had to be 4 years or older. It looked like a softball it was so big n round. The joe and 2 year old looked like pingpong balls and the 3 year old was in between.

When I see big gobblers I feel the roost bone and show others what to look for. but its not just the age.....its the spurs, beard and hunt!

I am never feeling for a Gobblers's Roost Bone. I'd rather keep guessing at his age.

[Stinky J Picklestein]

...I also say BS to those who believe in dull spurs near rocky terrain. I've never seen a turkey hit it's spurs on rocks. Thats just not feasible...

That's EXACTLY what I've always thought!!! I just haven't spent any time around mountain or desert Merriams or Rios to support the argument. All I've seen were regular ol' short spurs...not some potential 1.5" hooks that the rocky terrain magically polished down to look exactly like regular ol' short spurs. If that's the case, I could argue that a Merriams' gobble sounds different from an Eastern because of the rocky terrain, too.

[Stinky J Picklestein]

I am never feeling for a Gobblers's Roost Bone. I'd rather keep guessing at his age.

C'mon now...aren't ya the least bit curious?

[Gobbler]

No, I ain't never heard of a roost bone. I think Hoobilly is messing with us.

[guesswho]

3/4-7/8 inch shark tooth around here more than likely equals a two year old. I'm feel confident aging them around here from jakes to four or better, there are always exceptions but for the most part I feel I've handled and seen enough birds in my area to give a good estimate.

Also I've seen a lot and I mean a lot of 1 1/2" spurs that in reality are 1 1/8 to 1 1/4".

My thoughts are about the same as yours tom. I think some gobblers would never see 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" no matter how old they were.

[hawglips]

I suspect more 3 year olds are called 2 year olds than the other way around. I know for a fact of a 5 year old that had under 1 inch spurs. He lived where there were no rocks and had good nutrition. Genetics is huge when it comes to spurs.

[Turkey Talker]

you have to think in DNA my friends. As I am a Biology major, i must say that genomes affect every aspect of this question!
Gobblers are suppose to grow 4 inches in beard length every year. Beards rot off, drag on the floor and bust, get shot off (DAVE), freeze off, ect. It is also said to be true that a gobbler can and will grow spurs 1/2 inch per year. Now you must determine the DNA behind all of this. Many times there are defects in brother genes. Body weight can also be factored into age in eastern birds.
Other factors = geographics and food source.
Merriam's that live in rocky areas will break off spurs, Osceola's live in swampy areas with water and soft sand and few rocks so they hold the longest without breaking, Higher proteins and calcium in the diet will produce strong and long spurs.

Every state and every subspecies will be different. So you cannot base it off of one states study ie "Indexes for Aging Turkeys" by R. Kelly.

If you know what they are eating, the habitat they are in, and the genome brother factor, you can then determine age.
There is truly (scientifically) NO way to accurately age a wild bird unless it was Tagged or Pin Raised.

[Turkey Talker]

It has also been found that where ever there is softer ground, beards grow longer, Osceola's also have longer legs which = longer beards.
DNA plays a huge role in filament of the strands. same as our beards and hair grow. A stronger beard will withstand wear and tear. Northern birds beard break off due to freeze. Bad DNA induced beard rot or what is better known at Melanin deficiency which causes the beard to turn blond in appearance. The deficiency weakens the beard causing it to break. Have you ever noticed blonde strands or red (amber) tips on the end of the beards?
Lovett Williams did a study on these AMBER tips, and found that a younger bird of 2 years will have smooth round amber tips on the end of the beard and a 3 year old bird and older will have BLACK jagged edges on the ends of the beards.

[Hoobilly]

Roost bone is the closest thing to tell age that I know....

a local "taxi dermust" showed me the roost bone on my 2nd and so far biggest tom. He showed me roost bones from a jake , 2 & 3 year old gobblers. He thought mine had to be 4 years or older. It looked like a softball it was so big n round. The joe and 2 year old looked like pingpong balls and the 3 year old was in between.

When I see big gobblers I feel the roost bone and show others what to look for. but its not just the age.....its the spurs, beard and hunt!

I am never feeling for a Gobblers's Roost Bone. I'd rather keep guessing at his age.

sorry guys...lol I was gone yesterday..met with Sloppy Snood and picked up 2 Christmas presents.

Roost bone..for those who have never felt it, is the bone the turkeys lay on while roosting in trees...its between their legs. lol

Actually its the huge round...geez lol

its uh ahhhh errr the round thingie where you start cutting the breast..meat off. lol

[Gobbler]

Yea I thought it was, but couldn't resist a moment of immaturity.

[Hoobilly]

Yea I thought it was, but couldn't resist a moment of immaturity.

thus the Christmas Spirit! lol

[hawglips]

I also say BS to those who believe in dull spurs near rocky terrain. I've never seen a turkey hit it's spurs on rocks. Thats just not feasible. I've got a rooster chicken that has 2" spurs and we have rocks where I live.

I have always kept my mouth shut when folks say this about rocks and spurs, but I see it the same way you do Joe. I just don't see how rocks can come into play.

[Hognutz]

I shot a gobbler a few years ago, that had a 9''+ beard and no spurs. None. No nubs where there should have been spurs. I'm not a turkey guru, geneticist, or any kind of authority on the subject, but I got to believe that genes have a great deal to with spur and spur length..Kinda like how well endowed you are. Some cats got it, and some cats don't..

[Gobbler]

If rocks don't dull spurs.

Are you also saying a Gobbler won't follow a hen back to her nest and stomp her eggs so he can breed her again?
I'm devastated over all these new hypothesis I'm reading lately.

[Hognutz]

If rocks don't dull spurs.

Are you also saying a Gobbler won't follow a hen back to her nest and stomp her eggs so he can breed her again?
I'm devastated over all these new hypothesis I'm reading lately.

What's this world coming to??

[ncturkey]

I look at a birds age like Lovett Williams did in his study ya"ll refer to that longbeards with amber tips are 2 year old birds. And that those amber tips will be smooth and rounded in shape and a 3 year old bird and older will have black jagged edges on the ends of the beards. Too me spurs are a hard way to judge the age of turkeys due to different genetics and the different places they live. Plus nothing is a 100 % full proof when judging age of a gobbler. I have seen a turkey with a uneven fan, short 4" beard with 5/8" sharp spurs. By the spur chart he should be a 2 year old but I do not think so. This was down in the lowland swamp area in SC. In the same area I have seen birds with amber tipped beards and 1 1/4" spurs. Up where I live in North Carolina I took a bird that had a 10 1/4" beard which had all black tips and the spurs were near a 1" long but were dull and round like a jake spur. The area I took him from was full of Flint rock. I was told by Wildlife folks that the rocks is what had dulled his spurs. But the spurs did not look like they had been rubbed on rocks. I think it was just a genetic defect in that bird. A buddy of mine found a dead gobbler on the side of the road. It han a leg band on it. It had NCWRC and a number on it. The gobbler had a 10" + beard with all black broken tips and the spurs were both 1 1/8". I called Mike Semster which was the head turkey project leader back then for NC. Guess what the age of that turkey was. Well Mike S. said the gobbler was a longbeard when he was released three years ago. So that would put him at 5 years old or older depending if he was 2 or 3 years old when they released him. Mike seems to remember that it was a two year old. You would have thought the spurs would be a little longer at that age. But age alone does not affect the spur length. Sometimes I think we put too much into stats of the game we get. Sure I love to measure the beard and spurs just like everyone. But to me the hunt is what get smy blood to boiling. Plus the gobble makes the hair on the back of my neck really stand up. Trying to age a turkey you have taken is a fun. But nothing is exact when trying to do so. Good topic. The more we study these grand birds the better we get to know him.

[Treerooster]

I also say BS to those who believe in dull spurs near rocky terrain. I've never seen a turkey hit it's spurs on rocks. Thats just not feasible. I've got a rooster chicken that has 2" spurs and we have rocks where I live.

I have always kept my mouth shut when folks say this about rocks and spurs, but I see it the same way you do Joe. I just don't see how rocks can come into play.

I am in the same boat with you guys. If spurs are being dulled by rocks I would expect to consistently see some chipping or deep scratches on the sides of the spur also.

I have hunted a lot of Merriams in different states but in similar Ponderosan Pine mountain habitat. There are rocks there but I wouldn't call the terrain rocky. In some areas the spurs are usually dull, but in others the spurs tend to be more sharp. To me the sharpness is more a function of the population genetics.


I actually aked this question to Dr Williams over on the OG site. Here is the question and response.

My question;

Dr Williams I have read a lot of your books and there are many references you make to having a good scientific basis for any conclusions one might come up with about wildlife.

I have 2 questions about sharp vs dull spurs.

1). Has there been any scientific study on why some spurs tend to be sharp in a population of turkeys and why others tend to be dull? Keeping in mind that older gobblers tend to have sharper spurs.

2). Could the sharpness of spurs be genetic? I hunt a lot of Merriam's turkeys in several different locations around the country. I hunt in mostly Ponderosa pine habitat, which is pretty similar in SD, MT, WY, CO, and NE. In some areas I find the spurrs to be relatively dull on average. In other areas I find the spurs sharper on average. The areas, even though many miles apart, are pretty similar in the make-up of the habitat. Including how rocky they are.


Dr Williams anawer;


Treerooster,

I'll answer by number.

1.) There has been no scientific study.

2.) Sharpness is genetic. Gould's losing it's spurs. I have noted that Gould's 1 out 10 are spurless.

Let me have your real name. I want use it a Q & A.

[ICDEDTURKES]

I think the Merriams is a whole different critter genetically.. Even beard length on Merriams tend to suffer.. Some would attribute that to snow but Easterns in high snowfall areas such as MI, WI, NY etc sport 10+ inch beards routinely..

Nutrition could also be a factor in merriams beard and spur production as well..

[ncturkey]

I can see where Nutrition could play a role in the development of spurs and beards. Good Genes and nutrition play a big part in all wildlife. Bucks tend to grow bigger antlers when they have good gentics and good nutition. So to me turkeys would also benifit from good nutition and good genetics.

[ncturkey]

I forgot to mention I have taken a gobbler a broken spur. I do not know how he did it but it was broken off. Plus have a few that have chiped off places near the tip of their spurs. I did not know what it would take to chip or break a spur but something did. My guess would be fighting. But could have been from hard object hitting them. Or the turkey hitting them on something hard.