Burris Fast Fires.....

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GLS
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by GLS »

I'd be curious as to whether or not the rubber gasket that sits between the base and the FF and FFII could be an issue.
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Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Cont520 »

GLS wrote:I'd be curious as to whether or not the rubber gasket that sits between the base and the FF and FFII could be an issue.
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pullit
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by pullit »

I am/was running thru a bunch of hand loads keeping 3 guns sighted in. I have (4) FFII one is still in the box. I have one gun that is almost aways on. The other two are off every year.
This year the one gun that is almost always on is about 2-3 inches left of dead center. My 935 was low left and my 870 was so low and right that I would have missed the bird@40.
I tried using the cheap field loads to sight in with and got everything hitting fine @ 10 yrds. When I went back to 40 yrds I was off with my hand loads.
I had the same problem as Ronny, when I adjusted the sight the impact point did not move. I adjusted again and now it moved too much.
Long story short to save shells (and what little hair I have left) I got 2 guns on and just put the 870 back in the rack and said screw it.
I went thru about 10-15 turkey shells (counting a couple I went thru on the 870) getting my sights on.
One thing I HATE about the FFII is that you have no real idea how much you are moving that dang little red dot when you adjust it, not to mention the fact that when you tighten the lock screws it moves just a little.

The FFIII does look a little better but like Reloader said, I am about ready to start looking for a new mouse trap.
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Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Cont520 »

Did y'all's ff2 come with the dial to give you windage and elevation adjustments? I used that with mine and it zeroed quickly. I am going to recheck it Thursday for a 40y zero but as of Monday it's dead on.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by YellaJacket »

I'll have an Eotech xps before any other electronic on a new gun
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Gobbler »

Hopefully My nephew will verify the FF3 on my 20ga this weekend. With some federal heavy 5's upside the head of a BIG GOBBLER! :mrgreen:
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Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Cont520 »

How does those heavy 5s do in your 20 gauge and what choke
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by ncturkey »

Sloppy_Snood wrote:As much money as you guys are going to spend "re-sighting" the FastFires, why not just quit being cheap and buy a Trijicon RMR sight? :scratch: :dontknow: :toothy7:

LINK: RMR-C-700063: RMR Nickel Boron LED Sight - 3.25 MOA Red Dot (Click Here)

Image
It's funny you mention this sight. I looked at the Trijicon RMR Dual-Illuminated model with the 9 mil green dot at the NWTF Convention this year. Plus I was talking with a friend of mine who is a 3- Gun shooter. He also told me of problems with the Burris FF sights losing there zero. He told me to either a Eotech or a Trijicon sight. He said they hold there zero.
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poorcountrypreacher
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by poorcountrypreacher »

Count me as another one that can't get a FF to hold zero. I bought a FF3 for the little Yildiz SXS 20 gauge, and William at SumToy figured out a way to mount it. His mount is rock solid and there is no chance it has moved, but the FF is all over the place. I have kept a record of the settings I used, and its now totally different from where it was originally. I have twice gone out to take the final shot and make sure it is zeroed, and both times found it way off from where it was the last shooting session.

And the arrows that show direction are wrong. The manual says that the arrows show the POI change, but they actually show the direction the dot moves. It was shooting high, but turning the dial down actually lowered the dot and made it shoot even higher. I had to turn the dial in the up direction in order for it to shoot lower. I dunno if the manual is wrong or the sight is backward. If it would hold zero it wouldn't matter.

I wish I had bought something else, but the mount is permanently attached, so I am stuck with it.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Turkey Talker »

Gobbler wrote:Hopefully My nephew will verify the FF3 on my 20ga this weekend. With some federal heavy 5's upside the head of a BIG GOBBLER! :mrgreen:
Good Luck Guys!
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GLS
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by GLS »

None of this bodes well for me. I've been a Trijicon and Aimpoint fan and user for years and bought two FFIII's this summer. I've just ordered a Docter II off of ebay. The Docter II is the mid generation Docter.The III is available in Europe. The Dr. II sells on Ebay for what a FFIII sells for with a base (Picatinny). It's interchangeable with all FF mounts. The FF is a knock-off on the German made Docter. If I recall correctly, a few years ago Trijicon re-badged the Docter and sold it under the Trijicon label.
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Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Reloader »

I did some looking online and it appears that Trjicon makes an adapter that goes on a Docter reflex sight mount, then fits their RMR sights. I read on several pistol forums that the Docter and FF share the same mount. It's $50, but gives those of us running the low pro 336 mount an option. If I had a weaver rail, I'd just go with Trijicon's own mount.

I wonder if the Docter is any better than a FF? It looks exactly the same as a FF2 and will mount on a FF base. I just looked at a sale ad on the Docter and the packaging is even exactly the same as a FF. Probably come from the same place. Scratch that one, looks like the Leupold or Trijicon are the only quality tiny reflexes. Post others if you know of any.
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GLS
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by GLS »

The Docter is superior. It is made in Germany. The Burris is made in China. If you buy the Docter from anyplace but Docter USA, warranty service is in Germany. Dr. USA does warranty work in the US, but the cost is double for purchasing it. Burris has great warranty service, but I'm concerned about the zero issue. This is the first I've heard of the problem. Apparently it varies from unit to unit judging from responses here. As I stated earlier, the Dr.III is available in Europe. That might explain the lowering of cost of the Dr. II. It might be that Dr. is dumping the II units here and not making them anymore. As of this past summer, the Dr. III wasn't available through US sources. I don't know the present status. Gadget has always preferred the Docter over the Burris. Better optics, clearer dot, etc.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Burris Optics »

The FF2 is tricky to sight in. We are aware of that which is the reason we made changes on the FF3 to eliminate that problem. The dot can shift when locking it down. If you keep it in the rest, move the dot to your pattern, and then watch the dot as you tighten the lock screws you should be able to get it sighted in without too many headaches. Not the best way but it seems to work pretty good. YMMV.

The FF3 uses a clicker adjustment and no locks so there shouldn't be too many issues with sighting that one in.

The drifting issue that everyone is referring to is a complete mystery to me. We've been making that sight for 4 years and this is the first I've heard of it. If you have a sight that you know is drifting please let me know. I'll swap you out with a FF3 just so I can test it myself. Hell I'll even buy it back if you absolutely don't want a Burris product. Let me know if we have any takers.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Burris Optics »

poorcountrypreacher wrote: Count me as another one that can't get a FF to hold zero. I bought a FF3 for the little Yildiz SXS 20 gauge, and William at SumToy figured out a way to mount it. His mount is rock solid and there is no chance it has moved, but the FF is all over the place. I have kept a record of the settings I used, and its now totally different from where it was originally. I have twice gone out to take the final shot and make sure it is zeroed, and both times found it way off from where it was the last shooting session.

And the arrows that show direction are wrong. The manual says that the arrows show the POI change, but they actually show the direction the dot moves. It was shooting high, but turning the dial down actually lowered the dot and made it shoot even higher. I had to turn the dial in the up direction in order for it to shoot lower. I dunno if the manual is wrong or the sight is backward. If it would hold zero it wouldn't matter.

I wish I had bought something else, but the mount is permanently attached, so I am stuck with it.
I just checked both the FF2 and the FF3. The arrow direction on both are correct.

The mount you have will most likely work with the Docter sight as well so you aren't stuck with the FastFire.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Burris Optics »

GLS wrote:I'd be curious as to whether or not the rubber gasket that sits between the base and the FF and FFII could be an issue.
Not that I know of. I would doubt that this would be an issue.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by toasty »

Burris Optics wrote:The FF2 is tricky to sight in. We are aware of that which is the reason we made changes on the FF3 to eliminate that problem. The dot can shift when locking it down. If you keep it in the rest, move the dot to your pattern, and then watch the dot as you tighten the lock screws you should be able to get it sighted in without too many headaches. Not the best way but it seems to work pretty good. YMMV.

The FF3 uses a clicker adjustment and no locks so there shouldn't be too many issues with sighting that one in.

The drifting issue that everyone is referring to is a complete mystery to me. We've been making that sight for 4 years and this is the first I've heard of it. If you have a sight that you know is drifting please let me know. I'll swap you out with a FF3 just so I can test it myself. Hell I'll even buy it back if you absolutely don't want a Burris product. Let me know if we have any takers.
Now that is customer service. This kind of attitude is refreshing to see these days, a manufacturer standing behind their product. Nice to know that if I have any issues with my FFII that I will be taken care of.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by ICDEDTURKES »

toasty wrote:
Burris Optics wrote:The FF2 is tricky to sight in. We are aware of that which is the reason we made changes on the FF3 to eliminate that problem. The dot can shift when locking it down. If you keep it in the rest, move the dot to your pattern, and then watch the dot as you tighten the lock screws you should be able to get it sighted in without too many headaches. Not the best way but it seems to work pretty good. YMMV.

The FF3 uses a clicker adjustment and no locks so there shouldn't be too many issues with sighting that one in.

The drifting issue that everyone is referring to is a complete mystery to me. We've been making that sight for 4 years and this is the first I've heard of it. If you have a sight that you know is drifting please let me know. I'll swap you out with a FF3 just so I can test it myself. Hell I'll even buy it back if you absolutely don't want a Burris product. Let me know if we have any takers.
Now that is customer service. This kind of attitude is refreshing to see these days, a manufacturer standing behind their product. Nice to know that if I have any issues with my FFII that I will be taken care of.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Reloader »

Burris Optics,

1st of all, Welcome to GN! Good to see you on here.

I got rained out this past weekend, so it will be Friday before I can test my main two guns with FFs again.

If you'll search around, there's a bit of talk on the FFs drifting. I feel some can be with the mounts, but some is definitely the sights. I've done some swapping the past year with mounts and guns, but one of my FFs has been on the same gun for several years and it definitely drifts. The good thing is it's not much, but it's enough to cause my confidence with the gun to suffer. One of my friends had his drift 12" at 40yds on one gun, a few inches on another, and dead on with the 3rd FF equiped rig. Same loads and same chokes BTW. Also not factory load where components and lots can have an impact, these are very repeatable and consistent handloads. One of my turkey rigs wears a Nikon Monarch TP scope on a Weaver rail and hasn't moved since it was zeroed years ago FWIW. All of my guns have their trigger weights lightened and these results are from a bench rest at 40yds.

Thanks for the awesome support on this issue. As soon as I fire the gun I'm having the worst issues with this Friday, I'll let you know how it holds throughout the session. I will also pull out my FF1 and remount to see if it will hold, I've had issues with it moving as well.

I do feel you are right on the movement while locking, which is the very reason for the cost of excess shots while zeroing. I keep my gun in the rest and watch the dot move to center of pattern, but I come off the gun to do the locking process and I feel the dot is moving during that process. I can get past that issue, but the drift from recoil is a real issue. 3.5" turkey loads are about as brutal as it gets when it comes to recoil. I've seen slug guns and heavy recoiling CFs eat scopes. Even the best optics Cos(or any other man made product FTM) will have issues at times. Quality and durability are most important, but CS when needed, it is on the same level. Glad to see Burris step up on this issue.

Have a good one,

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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by el diablo »

Glad you made it over Burris Optics! I had some issues with a FF2 a couple of years ago that where completely my fault and you took care of it. Greatly appreciated and that site has held zero for three years.(knock on wood)
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Burris Optics »

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not too concerned about the sighting in issue. We've known it was a PITA until we figured out a way to simplify it. Again this was the main modification we made to the FF3.

Like you, I'm more concerned with the drifting issue that you guys are seeing, much more concerned. I use the same sight on an 835 and haven't had any issues but I'm not shooting loads that pattern like the stuff you guys are using, unfortunately. I really would like to get one of your worst sights in hand. I'll put it through my own tests and get it on video for you. Make sure you note the serial number. I just got off the phone with our QC manager and he assured me that we have all of the necessary fixtures to test the sight and the they just installed a new collimator last week that will show us a precise POI/POA shift. One way or another I will find an answer to the problem.

All I ask is that you guys give us a chance to look into this from our side before flaming us too hard. If there's an issue we WANT to know about it so we can fix it. If there's someone that just hates Burris, or me for that matter, then knock yourself out but for the rest of you I will absolutely try to get you an answer and as much documentation to back up our findings as possible. Right now it sounds like we are going to video tape it so you can see for yourself. You may want us to try something else along the way that we didn't think of so if nothing else it should be entertaining.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Gobbler »

My Burris FF3 held so far. It worked flawlessly this past weekend. My Nephew smacked one. I am going to hunt with it this coming weekend and next week. Look forward to it,
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by Reloader »

Thanks Burris Optics!!

Hopefully nothing here has sounded like a bash on Burris. Your response is certainly welcomed.

Regardless of the make of an optic, when I have issues, I lose confidence. Even when they are repaired, I can't seem to regain the confidence lol. The Burris FFs are one of the best improvements I've made to my turkey guns and I've led many other shooters to them for that reason. The light weight, small size, and ease of use are just flat out sweet. I've had kids pile up a many a tom with your sights and IMO it gets no easier than this type sight. I certainly hope that you guys can get several of these problem FFs and diagnose the issue.

As I said, I'll test all of mine this Friday, and send you any problem childs. I'm hoping my most consistent FF2 is still on as it's less than 2 weeks til season.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by timbrhuntr »

This is interesting because I bought the fastfire 3 last fall after having issues with my mueller holding zero. I found the burris easy to sight in and so far it has held zero. I used it in the fall and again in February on a pheasant hunt with no problem. I also took it to the range just to check and it has been on so far.
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Re: Burris Fast Fires.....

Post by poorcountrypreacher »

Burris Optics wrote:
poorcountrypreacher wrote: Count me as another one that can't get a FF to hold zero. I bought a FF3 for the little Yildiz SXS 20 gauge, and William at SumToy figured out a way to mount it. His mount is rock solid and there is no chance it has moved, but the FF is all over the place. I have kept a record of the settings I used, and its now totally different from where it was originally. I have twice gone out to take the final shot and make sure it is zeroed, and both times found it way off from where it was the last shooting session.

And the arrows that show direction are wrong. The manual says that the arrows show the POI change, but they actually show the direction the dot moves. It was shooting high, but turning the dial down actually lowered the dot and made it shoot even higher. I had to turn the dial in the up direction in order for it to shoot lower. I dunno if the manual is wrong or the sight is backward. If it would hold zero it wouldn't matter.

I wish I had bought something else, but the mount is permanently attached, so I am stuck with it.
I just checked both the FF2 and the FF3. The arrow direction on both are correct.

The mount you have will most likely work with the Docter sight as well so you aren't stuck with the FastFire.
Burris, Thanks for coming over here and posting. I would have sent you a pm on OG, but they banned me the day I joined here, even though I hadn't posted over there in months. Glad you are here!

I don't know anything that could have moved my sight except the recoil of the gun. I have never carried it hunting, and it has only gone from the safe to my target range in my yard and back to the safe. I started to try to contact Burris earlier, but I never got around to it, and now we are 3 days from the season opening and its too late to change it. Plus, I bought it last year and I think my warranty is out. The good news is it is finally sighted in and I can look thru the sight and also see the front bead. The white line at the back of the FF allows me to line it up with the front bead and see where the POI should be if the gun shot straight. Mine doesn't, so the dot is to the right in the sight picture. I think I have the sight picture memorized now, so if it does move again, I should be able to notice it.

I don't know what to say about the arrow direction. My gun shot high several inches, so I moved it several clicks in the opposite direction of the up arrow, and that made it shoot higher. The manual said that the arrow indicates the change in POI, so moving it down should have moved the pattern down. I took the barrels out of the gun, put them in a vice, and watched thru the sight as I turned the adjusting screw. Moving the screw in the up direction makes the dot go up, moving the opposite direction makes it go down. I moved it 9 clicks up from the original position and it now shoots dead on. If you are interested in it, I can send it to you after the season is over. I don't want to take it off at this point.

Thanks again for coming over here. I am a Burris man and own a bunch of Burris products, and I certainly wasn't intending to bash the FF3. It is a great little sight if I can just get it to hold zero. It might help to know that mine was one of the first FF3 to hit the market, and I bought it before the season last year.
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