Season Date Question

[ICDEDTURKES]

We all know there has been a push from the NWTF, biologists and state wildlife agencies to push season dates further back until the majority of hens are bred.. They say this push back does not only increase hunter satisfaction as season dates supposedly correlate with the "2nd peak", but allows birds to breed un disturbed..

Ironically, Lovett Williams states that 50% of hens flushed from a nest do not return, please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is what I read from his studies.. So essentially the states with the above mindset are sending hunters to field as these hens are setting on nests..

So in YOUR eyes, what would serve the bigger detriment to population growth.. Having a season start early whereas hunters are allowed to hunt while gobbler and hen flocks are re assembling and into the courting breeding stage.. Or, prohibiting hunting early, allowing the bulk of the breeding to be done and than sending turkey hunters into the woods when hens are nesting..

[hawglips]

This is a question that doesn't get discussed a whole lot on forums, but is a good one.

One other consideration that traditionally comes into play with making this decision is accidental or incidental hen shooting. If the season starts after the majority of hens are on the nest, then the chances of hunters killing hens goes down.

I've never busted but a few hens off the nest while hunting. In fact, I think the last time that happened was in '05. There were 11 osceola eggs on that nest, in palmettos on public land, and I've often wondered if she ever came back. On the other hand, I have a buddy that hasn't hunted that long, and doesn't hunt that much each season, but he busted two different hens off the nest this past spring on the same piece of land.

I am not sure which approach is the best to take. But it's clear that the majority of state wildlife agencies lean towards letting the hens get bred and start setting before opening the season. And I guess I tend to lean towards that approach as well.

[drenalinld]

Good topic. I am not convinced hunter satisfaction goes up with the late season. Sometimes that second gobbling peak just never happens. I would probably lean toward the later season dates because I like the tougher hunting. Anyone can call them up an kill them before the hens are ready.

From a management standpoint I just have to yield to the biologists. I mean their system for population estimates is foolproof. Most state biologists estimate the Spring gobbler harvest is 10% of the population and make their management decisions based on that population number.

Of those hens spooked off of a nest that do not return, i wonder how many lay a new clutch and start over. I understand poult survival rate goes up significantly when more are hatched in the same time frame, but this Spring more than any in my lifetime I have seen clutches of greatly varying size leading me to believe many hens started over and were successful with a second clutch.

IMHO hunting pressure and gobbler harvest have little effect on turkey populations and breeding success.

[ICDEDTURKES]

Good topic. I am not convinced hunter satisfaction goes up with the late season. Sometimes that second gobbling peak just never happens.

I do not see it either, that magical period as writers describe where there are "Gobblers on every hill side screaming out gobbles for one last mate". Maybe back when turkey densities were nil, now with a high population of hens, some naturally will breed earlier, some later, some renesting still hanging out with gobblers and jenny hens that may never breed keeping him company.. Gobblers can be found with hens courting into summer here. But this argument is still used by biologists concerning these discussions.

IMHO hunting pressure and gobbler harvest have little effect on turkey populations and breeding success.

This confuses me a bit.. You yield to the biologists, with their push for later dates, yet you see know reason to allow hunters in the woods pre and peak breeding..

Not picking an argument, just confused.

[dirt road ninja]

I’m in no way qualified to have a valid opinion on this, but I’ve busted a few hens off the nest both with tractors and on foot more from a machine and they return to it. They don’t seem to run very far either, I spooked a hen a few years ago sitting on a nest and 20 minutes later did it again walking out. It wasn’t till the 2nd time that I walk over there and saw the nest. I don’t know if she came back after the second time, but she did after the first time. I would find hard to believe that the bird wouldn’t return to the nest as long as it was still there and she wasn’t in any danger. As far as, when to open the season, I’ve find hunting more productive after the bulk of the breeding is done. It seems they get a little dumber after the first two week of the season, at least that’s what I’ve noticed in my little corner of the world. This past year was an exception to that with a lot of gobbling activity being early.

[drenalinld]

The yield to biologists comment was sarcastic. I have two major problems with the basis of many turkey biologists line of thinking.
One being the population estimates based off of Spring gobbler harvest numbers which is most directly tied to season dates with relation to peak breeding. They move the Season back a few days to reduce harvest because population numbers are down. That leads to a lesser harvest which is interpreted as a lower population, so they move it back further. If they had it in July they might think turkeys were an endangered species???
The other thing I disagree with is breeding periods are totally based on photoperiods. This past Spring should totally disprove that theory. I saw poults on the ground the first week of April. I think that theory is bunk, but I do not have a science degree.

[hawglips]

The other thing I disagree with is breeding periods are totally based on photoperiods. This past Spring should totally disprove that theory. I saw poults on the ground the first week of April. I think that theory is bunk, but I do not have a science degree.

No question that photoperiod is NOT the only thing determining breeding. I think the way I've seen the biologists word it is something along the lines of "photoperiod is the most reliable indicator" of breeding periods.

One thing is for certain though. Determining the best time for season starting dates is not an exact science.

[drenalinld]

I hear a ton of biologists state that peak breeding with turkeys and deer does not vary by more than two or three days from year to year.

[dirt road ninja]

I hear a ton of biologists state that peak breeding with turkeys and deer does not vary by more than two or three days from year to year.

I buy it with deer, not so much with turkeys. This past Spring was early. I had a buddy come down from SC and hunt with me opening weekend in MS. When planning the trip I told him I like the first week in April the best, if you can only come for a couple days. He did'nt want to miss his opener, so we planned on him coming down the 15th - 19th of March. That was the most gobbling I've heard on opening weekend. He ask if all that gobbling was normal and I said yes, in early April. We heard birds gobbling all season long, but it happened early this year.

[ICDEDTURKES]

I saw poults the earliest I have ever seen this year May 14th.. Than at the very end of May 2 gobblers had a harem of 7 hens, only one hen would leave and than re unite in the afternoon.

Other than the early poults everywhere I went seemed right on pace with every other year.

[dirt road ninja]

Other than the early poults everywhere I went seemed right on pace with every other year.

The pace of my season seemed normal as far as amount of birds seen and opportunities to kill them. The gobbling was off. I don’t get around much, with limited vacation time and family, I only hunt a few week days and every weekend. Last year I think I was able to go for 17 days, so I don’t know if the birds were fired up Tuesday – Friday and settled down for the weekend. My time spent in the woods did seem to produce the same amount of birds in range as past years, but this is the first year in forever that I killed all my birds after 10’oclock in the morning. I blamed it on an early Spring, but it was more than likely me being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. I also made more bad decisions this year than I care to admit. 2011 I could do no wrong, 2012 was harder hunting.

[Splittoe]

Here in Louisiana the state moved the season up a week about 5-6 years ago. I think that opening weekend is perfect. The gobblers are mostly seperate from the hens and normally grouped up. I've called up multiple gobblers at once on opening weekends since they moved the season up. Before then I had only called in a group of gobblers a handful of times. I have much more sucess early season opposed to later. It might be that I'm killing all the easy ones to start with...

In killing the gobblers early I seriously doubt any hens are going unbred. So I like the early season better for hunting and from a population viewpoint.

[davisd9]

Do not know much scientifically about breeding season, but can give you my opinion from my experience. I think breeding took place sooner this year but the overall winter and spring was not a normal one. Here are my experiences from this spring:

I hunted with dirt road ninja on opening weekend of Mississippi and that was the most gobbling I have heard in a long time. The most amazing part was after 6pm they were gobbling like it was 6 am. His place is mostly standing pines with hardwoods and I am used to hunting agriculture land for the most part, a few riverbottoms and hardwood ridges a few times throught the year, but I mostly hunt field birds. The Ms birds seemed to respond better to our PM calling rather than AM. I was on birds in the AM and know that if you do not get them coming to right off the roost you will have a hard time with real hens until about 9:30 or so. I had a good thing going one Friday or Saturday morning around 10 am in which I had a defective shell, , that missed the dag um bird. Might of had something to do with the dag um sapling that I did not see and was in the way, that thing took a blistering and I do not feel bad for shooting it! Every evening we had birds gobbling and we both killed our birds in the afternoon hunts.

dirt road ninja's was around 3 - 3:30 pm :


My bird was killed at around 6 - 6:30 pm, only gobbled a few times but came in strutting some:


On to SC, I do not live in the low country so my season did not start until April 1. I normally do not hunt Sundays but open day of turkey season I made an exception cause I did some praying about it and never got a conviction that I should not go. Opening morning was the best morning I had as far as turkey activity.

We had 5-6 different birds around us at first light. They were all gobbling at each other. Called in two about 7:45 and layed one on the ground, it was the only bird I killed before 4 pm this year, but some of that was because of defective shells, .

He came in gobbling, spittin and drumming with a buddy of his (wish I had gotten a better picture but other birds were in the area so I rushed to get back at it and did not take a better one:


Got two more fired up in another spot for two buddies and they got within 60 yards strutting and gobbling but never offered a shot.

The rest of the season I heard little to no gobbling what so ever on my main property. Some of the state land I hunt birds were gobbling better. This was surprizing to an extent. Last spring I hear birds gobble every single morning I was in the woods. It is not uncommon for my field birds to go silent after 9 am unless you get one really fired up.

Killed this one a 4 pm as he was strutting in a field and walked into my gun barrel, prettiest bird I killed this spring, but also the smallest:


Killed this bird at 4 pm as well. Had a buddy hunting with me and we messed up on three longbirds in the exact spot about 10 am that morning. Got set up at 3:50. He called and was getting his stuff together when this big boy came running across the field, just like the three from the morning did, but we did not hear a gobble all day long. He got to 50 yards and my ole girl did her job. After I shot two fly up in a tree about after a hour or calling and a hawk swooping down at my dead tom they would not come back. Biggest of the year :


The last bird I killed was around 6:30 pm. I was setup in the spot I killed the previous one but the corn had jumped and I just did not feel like they would walk it like they were a week and a half earlier. Got up and walked to the back part of the property where it connects to stay land. Just as I was about 30 yards from peeking into the field a hawk screamed and BAM, a gobble. Got to where I thought it was in the field and a gobbler and 4 hens were in the field. Watched something I have never seen before, he was doing an excited jig and them watched him breed two of the hens. Finally they walked across the field and to me and I shot, was farther than I thought and thank goodness I made sure my gun would handle for miscalculation of distance. He dropped. After realizing the distance I felt bad about shooting but was glad he dropped and did not run off crippled. Make sure I will do better from now on.


Lots of SC hunters had a bad year because of the early spring. I think some of it was excuses and a little of it was legit. Things were weird this past spring, but birds where there to kill if you where there to kill them. Learned a lot about huntimg from the difficult hunting. By looking at the jakes from this past spring next season will be awesome!

[hawglips]

I hear a ton of biologists state that peak breeding with turkeys and deer does not vary by more than two or three days from year to year.

I'd say those biologists are very wrong.

I hunted a certain mountain in Utah during the same week in May 2011 and in May 2012.

In 2011, they had had an abnormally high amount of snowfall during winter/spring. In 2012 they had had an abnormally dry and warm winter/spring.

In 2011, after the cold snowy winter, the toms were displaying and following hens. We ran into a lot of hens in 3 days of hunting. The toms responded well to hen calls and worked like normal spring-time breeding-cycle toms.

In 2012, the same week of May, on that same mountain, after the mild winter, during 3 days of hunting, we never found or saw or heard a single hen anywhere. Not one in 3 days. And the toms were flocked up with other toms, and would not come to hen calls. The only way I finally managed to kill a tom was to call to them with gobbler yelps and fall-style hunt them.

If I had any doubt before that weather comes into play with the breeding cycle, which I didn't, there is no way I could doubt it after that experience.

[GLS]

We fish the same areas we hunt. The season ends on May 15th. Throughout June, turkeys gobble up and down the rivers. Hit the boat with a paddle---gobble. It never fails, season after season. Gil

[savduck]

We fish the same areas we hunt. The season ends on May 15th. Throughout June, turkeys gobble up and down the rivers. Hit the boat with a paddle---gobble. It never fails, season after season. Gil

yep. They like the roaring of the bass boats to.

[Turkey Talker]

hens will return to the nests after being busted off of them.

might as well only allow fall hunting if all this madness is up for discussion.

[Spuriosity]

Things definitely heated up and then cooled off earlier this year where I hunt in NC and Ky than I can remember. Birds were gettin' it done 6 weeks before the season came in. Luckily I got all 4 of my birds the first couple of days of the respective seasons. Guys that hunted later on had a real tough time. No biologist (who I normally respect BTW) is going to convince me that weather is not involved in the breeding period. It was early this year.

[GobbleNut]

This is a good topic for discussion and it is good to see some thoughtful opinions about all of the factors that can influence breeding behavior and success (or failure) in reproduction in wild turkey populations. Unfortunately, this is not a "one-size-fits all" subject and wildlife managers,...as well as those of us that consider ourselves to be "experts" in the field ,...can only apply the best information they have available and hope for the best.

I, too, agree that weather can play a role in the onset of breeding. It will not change it drastically,...that is, it will not make turkeys start breeding in January when they would normally breed in late March, for instance,...but it can certainly move things up or back a couple of weeks in extreme seasonal weather cycles. The length of the day apparently does play the most significant role in the initiation of breeding, but to state that breeding will start on "this date" and end on "this date" is obviously not true, based on our collective experiences. Therefore, one can only conclude that there is some "leeway" in the eyes of the turkeys as to when they want to get things rolling. Regardless of our wanting to dictate it to them, they appear to be determined to do things the way they want to, not the way we want them to.

As for the "flush a hen off the nest one time and it's over" theory, I have a hard time accepting that,...the honorable Lovett Williams expertise aside. There are too many things in a hen turkeys life that will result in her flushing off of her nest,...and people are just one of them. Sure if a hen chooses a poor nesting site and gets repeatedly flushed from it, whether it be by a hunter, a porcupine, a wandering mushroom picker, a bunny, a bunny hugger, or whatever,...she is likely to think to herself,..."Hmmm, if I continue to sit here on these eggs, I am likely to get myself eaten. Perhaps I should look for another spot to nest,...and since I can't carry these here eggs over there, I guess I'll just leave them here." (Okay, so turkeys don't really think that way,..but their instincts will tell them something to that affect). The bottom line is that a hen that gets spooked off of her nest once in a while is probably likely to return to it, regardless of what a limited study in Florida a long time ago suggested. Will they abandon their nests on occasion,...most certainly, but if every hen turkey was so apt to give up on her procreative instinctive mandate in life by a little scare on the nest once in a while, logic dictates that the species would have been long gone off of this planet some time ago.

And since I have time today and am in a writing mood, a will delve into the "huntin' too early or huntin' too late" debate. Succinctly, my opinion (which already makes this entire essay suspect) is that in most cases, it probably does not make a "hill o' pinto beans" worth of difference when the season starts or ends. Starting the season early can disrupt breeding, but will it cause it to stop? ...Not likely. Do we need to start spring gobbler seasons at such a time that we disrupt their breeding? The answer is clearly,..."no we don't",...and if that is the clear answer, then why would we want to, knowing that their breeding success is imperative to our continued success in hunting them? The logical conclusion: start the season a week or two after the "average" date that the turkeys in a region begin to actively breed. Establish that date,..and stick to it,...noting that management principles dictate that long term changes in turkey populations in any area may dictate changes in management in all forms. Do not adjust starting dates one year to the next based on short-term seasonal weather anomalies. None of us can predict what this winter or the onset of next spring will bring.

As for the "huntin' too late" debate, it is really the same. Healthy turkey populations are not likely to be affected by hunters being in the woods longer. The question, to me, really is this. Is there a need to extend the season in order to provide a reasonable amount of additional hunting opportunity in specific cases? We hear of states that have such long seasons that even the most die-hard gobbler chaser has got to be worn out by the time the season comes to a close. Do those states need to lengthen their seasons? Hardly.

By the same token, we still have those states that allow their turkey hunters an abysmally small amount of time in which to pursue their passion (okay,..."addiction" is a more appropriate term). Is that justified in terms of managing the resource? In most cases,...not really. Managers who restrict spring gobbler hunts with short season dates (I'm talking five to seven day seasons or thereabouts here) just don't understand wild turkey biology very much, and they certainly do not undertand the psyche of the fanatic turkey hunter.

[drenalinld]

Can we make the previous post a sticky? Seriously, I couldn't agree more and if I didn't agree, I would keep it to myself because you are too intelligent for me to argue with.