New regulations for SC

[GLS]

From the Post and Courier:
"The South Carolina legislature has passed new regulations governing the hunting of wild turkeys in an effort to slow the population decline. The major takes from the new legislation is a return to split seasons and a limit of one bird during the first 10 days of the season. The seasonal bag limit will remain at three birds, but non-resident hunters will be limited to two birds.

In Game Zones 1 & 2 (the upper part of the state) the season will run April 1-May 10; in Game Zones 3 & 4 (which include Charleston, Berkeley and Dorchester counties) the season will run March 22-April 30. Each of the split seasons runs for 40 days whereas in the past the season was 47.

Another change that will take effect regards turkey tags, which historically have been free. There will be a $5 fee for a set of three turkey tags for residents, while non-residents can only purchase two tags at a cost of $100. Ruth said that DNR was having to pull money from other sources in order to provide the turkey tags, but the new fee not only will pay for tags but also fund turkey research. Also, beginning in 2021, electronic harvest reporting will be required."

[howl]

Typical government. Don't know what to do, but they'll never miss a chance to pass another tax.

[GLS]

Rest of the article:
"The legislature changed turkey hunting regulations and enacted a statewide season running from March 20-May 5 in 2016, which opened the season earlier and added about 50 percent more hunting days to the season.

“There was some angst about that among some folks and I think that prompted the legislature to include a sunset provision, in other words a self-destruct mechanism that had the legislation time out,” said Charles Ruth, Big Game Coordinator for the S.C. Department of Natural Resources. “It also included a provision for DNR to study the issue and report back to the legislature in November of 2018.”

Ruth said DNR began a cooperative study with Louisiana State University professor Dr. Brett Collier, one of the top turkey researchers in the country. The federally funded study took place over four years at the Webb Wildlife Center in Hampton County. The research was to determine the timing of gobbling and the timing of nesting which allows biologists to recommend the best times for a hunting season.

“Understand, we’re hunting turkeys at the same time they are trying to reproduce. People say that we hunt deer at the same time they are breeding, but deer don’t have their offspring until seven months later. Turkeys are doing everything at the same time,” Ruth said.

A hen turkey lays one egg per day until she completes her clutch, then begins incubation. Ruth said that the average nest initiation was April 9 and the average onset of incubation was April 22.

Ruth said that many experts feel that the early excessive removal of gobblers impacts the nesting success of hens. Based on that study, DNR recommended an April 10-May 5 turkey season to the legislature which sets game and fish regulations. After much work, they came up the the return to the split seasons and the one-bird per hunter during the first 10 days of the season.

“Historically, it was two birds per day within your limit,” Ruth said, adding that many hunters doubled up early in the season.

“It was a good process,” Ruth said of the interaction with the legislature. “I think all parties came away with the understanding that we’re going to monitor this thing the next three to five years. If we don’t see an increase in harvest at the same time we see an increase in reproduction, we’re going to stay on top of it and tweak it, if necessary. There is no sunset clause but there is a provision that we must report annually on the status of turkeys.”

[poorcountrypreacher]

>>>Ruth said that many experts feel that the early excessive removal of gobblers impacts the nesting success of hens. <<<

That's an interesting theory that we read often these days, but I have never read anything that presented any facts in support of it. Does any research exist that proves that this actually happens?

Common sense would say that it's possible in areas with very low populations, but I doubt that this is really a problem in areas with normal populations.

[Southern Sportsman]

>>>Ruth said that many experts feel that the early excessive removal of gobblers impacts the nesting success of hens. <<<

That's an interesting theory that we read often these days, but I have never read anything that presented any facts in support of it. Does any research exist that proves that this actually happens?

Common sense would say that it's possible in areas with very low populations, but I doubt that this is really a problem in areas with normal populations.

Historically, I think you would be right. Early in the seasons dominant birds often have large harems of hens and therefore gobble little after flydown and are essentially uncallable. They account for a big part of the breeding, so turkeys had a built in protection against this early overharvest of gobblers. But strutter decoys and fanning/reaping now seem more common than traditional calling of turkeys. These methods disproportionately target the dominant birds. So the ones that use to be unkillable until later in the season and took care of most of the breeding are now the first ones to hit the ground. Plus a lot of people who would have never killed a turkey otherwise now kill 2 opening weekend using a tent and decoys. So I can see how it might now be a problem.

And I have seen recent studies suggesting that social structures are more complex that previously though. Hens select the breeder. Once she has selected a gobbler (making herself part of a harem) and that gobbled gets killed, it may take 2 weeks for her to select a new mate — assuming there is another suitable mate available. That means that she would be nesting later which lowers polt survival rates. And if it happens a couple times she may never nest.

There have absolutely been recent studies in TN and elsewhere showing an alarmingly high number of hens that never initiate a nest. They suspect this early kill of gobblers is the culprit.

[jdjnicholson]

Are those start dates close to what they have been or earlier? Illinois has a split season but the state is almost 400 mi long.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[GLS]

With the advent of gps tracking devices combined with old-school telemetry and Yagi directional antennas, turkey studies are more sophisticated than decades ago when the theory that males are surplus once the season started and the population wouldn't be harmed by hunting (other than the shot turkeys). I think SS's observations have validity. Make no mistake about it, hunting doesn't increase the population and the old belief that it doesn't impact it may be too simplistic. The genie is out of the bottle regarding decoys and blinds. I was a participant in the gps study in SC as a gps unit the size of a yo-yo was given to those who would agree to carry one during the hunt and it would be turned in afterwards. GPS mapping disclosed that more than one hunter has been unknowingly within a 100 yards of birds who would stand silenty in one place for hours. Not a big surprise....I inadvertently forgot to turn mine in one day and drove home with it. Got it back to them a few days later. Gil

PS: SC's private land season in 2019 was from March 20th to May 5th. Public land's, April 1-May 5th. Weather must play a role in nesting as the lowcountry has milder weather early season than higher elevations to the north. Length of day would be a factor, but that would be controlled more by longitude than latitude, at least where the North-South distance from tip to top in SC is under 200 miles . Gil

[poorcountrypreacher]

>>>There have absolutely been recent studies in TN and elsewhere showing an alarmingly high number of hens that never initiate a nest. They suspect this early kill of gobblers is the culprit.<<<

I can see this being a theory, but how could they structure a study to prove it? I am skeptical of this being anything more than a popular idea among biologists, but I would certainly admit I could be wrong. I am yet to read anything that has any facts behind it. Perhaps these facts exist and they just aren't being shared with the public.

The main reason for my skepticism is that it just doesn't line up with my experience. I've seen the dominant bird be replaced in a day, and I've seen the dominant bird in a flock change from one week to the next. It's just anecdotal information, but I've been watching for a long time. I've had the blessing of getting to hunt the same land every year for 55 years now, and I don't believe that our hunting has ever had any effect on the overall population. Admittedly, we don't do reaping or use decoys.

I believe that nearly all the issues with population decline are due to changes in habitat. I hate to see legal hunting get blamed for it on nothing more than a theory.

[GLS]

A major impact in the lowcountry, according to one game biologist who works the area, has been Hurricanes Irma (Sept. 2017) and Michael (early Oct. 2018) killing young birds.

[BumbleFoot]

>>>Ruth said that many experts feel that the early excessive removal of gobblers impacts the nesting success of hens. <<<

That's an interesting theory that we read often these days, but I have never read anything that presented any facts in support of it. Does any research exist that proves that this actually happens?

Common sense would say that it's possible in areas with very low populations, but I doubt that this is really a problem in areas with normal populations.

Historically, I think you would be right. Early in the seasons dominant birds often have large harems of hens and therefore gobble little after flydown and are essentially uncallable. They account for a big part of the breeding, so turkeys had a built in protection against this early overharvest of gobblers. But strutter decoys and fanning/reaping now seem more common than traditional calling of turkeys. These methods disproportionately target the dominant birds. So the ones that use to be unkillable until later in the season and took care of most of the breeding are now the first ones to hit the ground. Plus a lot of people who would have never killed a turkey otherwise now kill 2 opening weekend using a tent and decoys. So I can see how it might now be a problem.

And I have seen recent studies suggesting that social structures are more complex that previously though. Hens select the breeder. Once she has selected a gobbler (making herself part of a harem) and that gobbled gets killed, it may take 2 weeks for her to select a new mate — assuming there is another suitable mate available. That means that she would be nesting later which lowers polt survival rates. And if it happens a couple times she may never nest.

There have absolutely been recent studies in TN and elsewhere showing an alarmingly high number of hens that never initiate a nest. They suspect this early kill of gobblers is the culprit.

I get it that SC has experienced a decline and they’re trying to fix it by trying different things, monitoring the results and refining their approach as they go. That’s laudable if the measures have popular support. Maybe it will work. Not sure they will ever discover why, even if the population increases. But—like PCP—it sticks in my craw when they try to pass it off as scientifically grounded and haven’t gotten past the rationale and hypothesis stages; more hope and hunch than science. At least for now, it’s untested. They should call it what it is.

I’d love to read a study that showed high numbers of hens didn’t attempt to nest. I can understand not reaching incubation but not even try to lay an egg??? How’d they figure that out?

[huntin]

>>>Ruth said that many experts feel that the early excessive removal of gobblers impacts the nesting success of hens. <<<

That's an interesting theory that we read often these days, but I have never read anything that presented any facts in support of it. Does any research exist that proves that this actually happens?

Common sense would say that it's possible in areas with very low populations, but I doubt that this is really a problem in areas with normal populations.

Historically, I think you would be right. Early in the seasons dominant birds often have large harems of hens and therefore gobble little after flydown and are essentially uncallable. They account for a big part of the breeding, so turkeys had a built in protection against this early overharvest of gobblers. But strutter decoys and fanning/reaping now seem more common than traditional calling of turkeys. These methods disproportionately target the dominant birds. So the ones that use to be unkillable until later in the season and took care of most of the breeding are now the first ones to hit the ground. Plus a lot of people who would have never killed a turkey otherwise now kill 2 opening weekend using a tent and decoys. So I can see how it might now be a problem.

And I have seen recent studies suggesting that social structures are more complex that previously though. Hens select the breeder. Once she has selected a gobbler (making herself part of a harem) and that gobbled gets killed, it may take 2 weeks for her to select a new mate — assuming there is another suitable mate available. That means that she would be nesting later which lowers polt survival rates. And if it happens a couple times she may never nest.

There have absolutely been recent studies in TN and elsewhere showing an alarmingly high number of hens that never initiate a nest. They suspect this early kill of gobblers is the culprit.

I hunt in one of the most impacted counties in Tennessee, so I really appreciate this information. Will you provide us with a link to these results.

On a side note South Carolina seems to think that nonresidents are more responsible for the declines than residents

[MKW]

Historically, I think you would be right. Early in the seasons dominant birds often have large harems of hens and therefore gobble little after flydown and are essentially uncallable. They account for a big part of the breeding, so turkeys had a built in protection against this early overharvest of gobblers. But strutter decoys and fanning/reaping now seem more common than traditional calling of turkeys. These methods disproportionately target the dominant birds. So the ones that use to be unkillable until later in the season and took care of most of the breeding are now the first ones to hit the ground. Plus a lot of people who would have never killed a turkey otherwise now kill 2 opening weekend using a tent and decoys. So I can see how it might now be a problem.

I agree with this 1000%. The field gobbler with a harem of hens used to be the hardest of all turkeys to kill...now he is the easiest. I fully believe that it is a major problem and that states should outlaw all male turkey decoys. Male turkey decoys instantly make the hardest of turkeys easily killable and the most unskilled of turkey hunters instantly successful. It has gone so far that killing turkeys requires zero turkey hunting knowledge. It's a shame.

[Southern Sportsman]

>>>Ruth said that many experts feel that the early excessive removal of gobblers impacts the nesting success of hens. <<<

That's an interesting theory that we read often these days, but I have never read anything that presented any facts in support of it. Does any research exist that proves that this actually happens?

Common sense would say that it's possible in areas with very low populations, but I doubt that this is really a problem in areas with normal populations.

Historically, I think you would be right. Early in the seasons dominant birds often have large harems of hens and therefore gobble little after flydown and are essentially uncallable. They account for a big part of the breeding, so turkeys had a built in protection against this early overharvest of gobblers. But strutter decoys and fanning/reaping now seem more common than traditional calling of turkeys. These methods disproportionately target the dominant birds. So the ones that use to be unkillable until later in the season and took care of most of the breeding are now the first ones to hit the ground. Plus a lot of people who would have never killed a turkey otherwise now kill 2 opening weekend using a tent and decoys. So I can see how it might now be a problem.

And I have seen recent studies suggesting that social structures are more complex that previously though. Hens select the breeder. Once she has selected a gobbler (making herself part of a harem) and that gobbled gets killed, it may take 2 weeks for her to select a new mate — assuming there is another suitable mate available. That means that she would be nesting later which lowers polt survival rates. And if it happens a couple times she may never nest.

There have absolutely been recent studies in TN and elsewhere showing an alarmingly high number of hens that never initiate a nest. They suspect this early kill of gobblers is the culprit.

I hunt in one of the most impacted counties in Tennessee, so I really appreciate this information. Will you provide us with a link to these results.

On a side note South Carolina seems to think that nonresidents are more responsible for the declines than residents

Yes, I will try to find it. It came out last year as part of the ongoing study in southern middle TN based on GPS data from adult hens.

[BumbleFoot]

Historically, I think you would be right. Early in the seasons dominant birds often have large harems of hens and therefore gobble little after flydown and are essentially uncallable. They account for a big part of the breeding, so turkeys had a built in protection against this early overharvest of gobblers. But strutter decoys and fanning/reaping now seem more common than traditional calling of turkeys. These methods disproportionately target the dominant birds. So the ones that use to be unkillable until later in the season and took care of most of the breeding are now the first ones to hit the ground. Plus a lot of people who would have never killed a turkey otherwise now kill 2 opening weekend using a tent and decoys. So I can see how it might now be a problem.

And I have seen recent studies suggesting that social structures are more complex that previously though. Hens select the breeder. Once she has selected a gobbler (making herself part of a harem) and that gobbled gets killed, it may take 2 weeks for her to select a new mate — assuming there is another suitable mate available. That means that she would be nesting later which lowers polt survival rates. And if it happens a couple times she may never nest.

There have absolutely been recent studies in TN and elsewhere showing an alarmingly high number of hens that never initiate a nest. They suspect this early kill of gobblers is the culprit.

I hunt in one of the most impacted counties in Tennessee, so I really appreciate this information. Will you provide us with a link to these results.

On a side note South Carolina seems to think that nonresidents are more responsible for the declines than residents

Yes, I will try to find it. It came out last year as part of the ongoing study in southern middle TN based on GPS data from adult hens.

Hope you will. I don’t think GPS data will tell you when a hen lays an egg in a nest.

[howl]

Did Francis Marion burn during nesting season again this year?

[MKW]

Did Francis Marion burn during nesting season again this year?

I cannot say that they didn't, but I didn't see any fires during the season.

[Southern Sportsman]

I will try to find the data on the TN study as time allows but that study hasn’t been published in final form. However, this is the study SC used and relied on when modifying their regulations.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/p ... sembly.pdf

Bottom of page 13:

“Predators and periodic poor weather conditions existed prior to the year 2000 so this more recent and prolonged poor success may be tied to other factors possibly including the high number of hens that do not attempt to nest. Our research at the Webb WMA Complex demonstrated 33 percent of hens did not attempt to nest during the 4-year study period. While some of those hens were juveniles which in some cases are not sexually mature, many were adults which raises the question why they did not attempt to nest and could early and excessive removal of gobblers be a factor.”

[BumbleFoot]

I will try to find the data on the TN study as time allows but that study hasn’t been published in final form. However, this is the study SC used and relied on when modifying their regulations.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/p ... sembly.pdf

Bottom of page 13:

“Predators and periodic poor weather conditions existed prior to the year 2000 so this more recent and prolonged poor success may be tied to other factors possibly including the high number of hens that do not attempt to nest. Our research at the Webb WMA Complex demonstrated 33 percent of hens did not attempt to nest during the 4-year study period. While some of those hens were juveniles which in some cases are not sexually mature, many were adults which raises the question why they did not attempt to nest and could early and excessive removal of gobblers be a factor.”

Not to be argumentative... That looks like a bill summary to their General Assembly and not a research report. I don’t know whether to characterize the passage on page 13 as a misinterpretation or a misrepresentation. They go on in Figure 9 to show that 67% of hens “laid eggs and attempted incubation of a nest.” That implies they didn’t consider it a nesting attempt unless a hen reached the stage of incubation. Without real data on nest initiation, that sort of shoots a hole in their basic premise that hens aren’t getting bred. That could very well be the case but they don’t know that and neither do you or I. I’m skeptical.

[GLS]

SC seems to be proactive in doing something about the population decline. Years ago the state took a stand against fall hunting partly because of a recognition of human nature acknowledging that poaching turkeys, ie, baiting and rifle kills, would be an issue in an overlapping deer season. http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/fallseason.html
Another point to consider about the decline in the SE. As mentioned in the above link, there was a "boom" in overall turkey populations throughout the southeast as for all purposes, a new species of wildlife was thrust into a vacuum as massive re-stocking was done in the former ranges. While most of it was over 40 years ago, it could be that what we are seeing now, at least partially, is nature seeking the optimum level of turkey populations throughout the range, considering all other factors, including habitat destruction. Since the early 1970s, Georgia's human population has more than doubled, requiring construction with resulting habitat destruction to clear land for housing, etc. Gil

[howl]

Did Francis Marion burn during nesting season again this year?

I cannot say that they didn't, but I didn't see any fires during the season.

That's good. They changed the schedule on some other federally controlled lands I know of elsewhere. I hope that is a trend.

[Roy]

Most of the pics I see of birds being taken are from a field edge with dekes in the background. There are a lot of birds being killed is all I know. Everyone turkey hunts and everyone is killing. Just think about all the birds being killed that aren’t checked. I guarantee if we could see the real number of birds being taken from each state, it would be a problem. A friend told me two years ago hunters in a adjoining property killing 7 or 8 gobbs that spring. He said the property is 200 acres and they are new turkey hunters.

[Southern Sportsman]

I will try to find the data on the TN study as time allows but that study hasn’t been published in final form. However, this is the study SC used and relied on when modifying their regulations.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/p ... sembly.pdf

Bottom of page 13:

“Predators and periodic poor weather conditions existed prior to the year 2000 so this more recent and prolonged poor success may be tied to other factors possibly including the high number of hens that do not attempt to nest. Our research at the Webb WMA Complex demonstrated 33 percent of hens did not attempt to nest during the 4-year study period. While some of those hens were juveniles which in some cases are not sexually mature, many were adults which raises the question why they did not attempt to nest and could early and excessive removal of gobblers be a factor.”

Not to be argumentative... That looks like a bill summary to their General Assembly and not a research report. I don’t know whether to characterize the passage on page 13 as a misinterpretation or a misrepresentation. They go on in Figure 9 to show that 67% of hens “laid eggs and attempted incubation of a nest.” That implies they didn’t consider it a nesting attempt unless a hen reached the stage of incubation. Without real data on nest initiation, that sort of shoots a hole in their basic premise that hens aren’t getting bred. That could very well be the case but they don’t know that and neither do you or I. I’m skeptical.

It’s a recommendation from the SC DNR to the General Assembly as the General Assembly was contemplating changes to the state’s season structures and regs. (Which they just completed). It was completed by the DNR to help guide the legislature and it describes - in pretty substantial detail - the findings of their research study. Including a pretty clear statement that 33% did not initiate nests. But I do see your point regarding 67% that “laid eggs and attempted incubation.” I guess it comes down to how they defined “nest initiation.”

I’m all for healthy skepticism. But this seems consistent with what I read from TN. I’m working from memory, but I think it was north of 40% that did not initiate. Admittedly that was from the most troublesome area of the state after populations fell drastically over a very short time frame.

I’m not a biologist and don’t claim to know all the details from the studies, but since a hen’s nest is in a single spot and a nesting hen returns to that nest daily to lay her eggs, I don’t think it would be hard to determine whether a hen initiates a nest using GPS tracking data.

[howl]

Regarding hens that do not nest, are there jennies which nest outside the study period and old hens past fertile years?

I think if I wanted to get rid of turkeys in an area I could come up with a good strategy as follows: gobble up habitat with a housing boom, bolster numbers of avian predators, protect coyotes in newly expanded ranges, practically stop creating new nesting and rearing habitat by timber harvest, change forestry burning times to disturb nesting, and further destroy nesting habitat by expanding use of herbicides in forests. I thank that'd do it.

[Southern Sportsman]

SC seems to be proactive in doing something about the population decline. Years ago the state took a stand against fall hunting partly because of a recognition of human nature acknowledging that poaching turkeys, ie, baiting and rifle kills, would be an issue in an overlapping deer season. http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/fallseason.html
Another point to consider about the decline in the SE. As mentioned in the above link, there was a "boom" in overall turkey populations throughout the southeast as for all purposes, a new species of wildlife was thrust into a vacuum as massive re-stocking was done in the former ranges. While most of it was over 40 years ago, it could be that what we are seeing now, at least partially, is nature seeking the optimum level of turkey populations throughout the range, considering all other factors, including habitat destruction.

I agree with this in large part. From what I have heard and read, when turkeys are re-introduced there is an anticipated “boom” where populations gradually rise to a peak that is higher than what can be expected long time. Then populations slowly fall down to whatever “normal” will be. I’m good with that. But the big problem I see is that many states (definitely including TN) set their seasons and limits during the “boom” years. Now populations are falling but states are slow to “take away” the liberal seasons and limits even though they are no longer sustainable. And we are now killing turkeys with previously unheard of efficiency.

Seems like the decline started in or around the early 2000s. Can anyone think of anything that changed in the early 2000s regarding the way people hunted turkeys?

[aristico]

Seems like the decline started in or around the early 2000s. Can anyone think of anything that changed in the early 2000s regarding the way people hunted turkeys?

MKW moved to south carolina?