South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
4/1 opener for most of SC was always wrong. Peak breeding was first two weeks of the season.
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Yes, it does mean that the season dates may have been set wrong all those years,...which is exactly what the research study infers. When turkey populations are doing well, there is little concern for what might actually be negatively impacting populations,..."things are great, let's leave things alone". It is only when it becomes apparent that there is a problem that wildlife managers start looking at the reasons.ChiefBubba wrote: ↑February 5th, 2019, 7:43 am So for years I've always heard that they set the season for peak gobbling which was after most of the hens have been bred and the gobblers are looking for hens. So from this that means they've had it set wrong all these year's? They other question would be then the breeding season has changed? I would doubt that but I'm sure you're could find a scientist out there someplace that would claim that.
Overall, is hunting a significant factor? Not really,...there are other factors that have already been mentioned that are glaringly more important. Nesting success and poult survival are, and always will be, the key ingredients to healthy turkey populations. The only factor influencing those two things that is related to hunting is the disruption of the breeding cycle such that hens are not getting bred. Starting the season too early may well disrupt the breeding cycle,...and that is completely unnecessary.
Not only should we hunters be in favor of not starting the season before the birds have had a chance to breed successfully, we should be INSISTING on it. What difference does it make to hunters if the season starts two weeks later? Other than having to wait two more weeks to do what we love doing, it makes absolutely no difference.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
I forgot...what are they trying to fix?
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
I’ve solved it.
20 day, nationwide season. No daily limit. No season limit.
I believe this one has a little something for everyone.
20 day, nationwide season. No daily limit. No season limit.
I believe this one has a little something for everyone.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
SwampDrummin for Prez 2020. Make turkey hunting great again!SwampDrummin wrote: ↑February 6th, 2019, 7:14 pm I’ve solved it.
20 day, nationwide season. No daily limit. No season limit.
I believe this one has a little something for everyone.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
I would take that!SwampDrummin wrote: ↑February 6th, 2019, 7:14 pm I’ve solved it.
20 day, nationwide season. No daily limit. No season limit.
I believe this one has a little something for everyone.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
I’d be happy with a track or two next to my Avatar if the moderators saw fit.BumbleFoot wrote: ↑February 6th, 2019, 7:34 pmSwampDrummin for Prez 2020. Make turkey hunting great again!SwampDrummin wrote: ↑February 6th, 2019, 7:14 pm I’ve solved it.
20 day, nationwide season. No daily limit. No season limit.
I believe this one has a little something for everyone.
- poorcountrypreacher
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
A few points I'd like to add:
1) My personal opinion is that any decline in turkey numbers is almost entirely due to habitat changes. No habitat stays the same, and if you aren't specifically managing your property for nesting habitat then it is probably getting worse. Big hardwoods are pretty, but they don't produce poults.
2) If hunting is having a negative impact on poult recruitment, that should not be that difficult to prove. The SC study was monitoring an area with no hunting at all. If their theories are valid, that area should have a higher poult recruitment than hunted areas. Forget season dates - this area wasn't hunted at all. And yet, no mention of the superior recruitment in that area. I would think that would have been Exhibit A if they had that, so I can only assume that it didn't happen. Maybe someone in SC can ask about this?
3) Lovett Williams expressed concern that a later hunting season would result in more cases of hunters disturbing hens on the nest and causing them to abandon them. This wasn't a theory; he had documented cases of hens who abandoned their nests after a single disturbance. Could it be that pushing the season later will cause more harm than good? Are any of the reports even considering that this is sure to happen?
My experience is that when you provide the habitat and all that turkeys need, then you will have turkeys. More than five decades of managing and hunting the same land has convinced me that our hunting of spring gobblers has no effect on the overall population. Although we always have some that are still gobbling in May, I don't want to see AL move to a later season. I don't have an opinion on what other states should do.
1) My personal opinion is that any decline in turkey numbers is almost entirely due to habitat changes. No habitat stays the same, and if you aren't specifically managing your property for nesting habitat then it is probably getting worse. Big hardwoods are pretty, but they don't produce poults.
2) If hunting is having a negative impact on poult recruitment, that should not be that difficult to prove. The SC study was monitoring an area with no hunting at all. If their theories are valid, that area should have a higher poult recruitment than hunted areas. Forget season dates - this area wasn't hunted at all. And yet, no mention of the superior recruitment in that area. I would think that would have been Exhibit A if they had that, so I can only assume that it didn't happen. Maybe someone in SC can ask about this?
3) Lovett Williams expressed concern that a later hunting season would result in more cases of hunters disturbing hens on the nest and causing them to abandon them. This wasn't a theory; he had documented cases of hens who abandoned their nests after a single disturbance. Could it be that pushing the season later will cause more harm than good? Are any of the reports even considering that this is sure to happen?
My experience is that when you provide the habitat and all that turkeys need, then you will have turkeys. More than five decades of managing and hunting the same land has convinced me that our hunting of spring gobblers has no effect on the overall population. Although we always have some that are still gobbling in May, I don't want to see AL move to a later season. I don't have an opinion on what other states should do.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
PCP’s second point about hunting impacts on poult recruitment is at the crux of this. The authors of the SC report presuppose the timing of the hunt is having a negative impact. They don’t come close to supporting their supposition with research data.
But...let’s say their hunch is correct, as it could possibly be. Moving the season later is but one option to stem impacts. If they are not going to use biological science, hopefully they’ll at least listen to hunters to select changes the hunters support.
But...let’s say their hunch is correct, as it could possibly be. Moving the season later is but one option to stem impacts. If they are not going to use biological science, hopefully they’ll at least listen to hunters to select changes the hunters support.
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Great that we can have civil conversations with well thought out opinions.
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Lots of stuff here, including gobbling activity on a hunted area and average date of nest initiation. The most relevant info to what is being discussed in this thread is in fig. 4-2, page 18. It may make your head hurt!
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/defau ... 0final.pdf
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/defau ... 0final.pdf
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Thanks. I don't doubt that hunting affects the gobbling one would hear on a specific area. I could have told them that from years of hunting public land in AL, but of course I recognize the need for the research to prove it . The SC study showed that unhunted place had about 2 more gobbles per day than hunted land. That seems like common sense that would happen - you remove some of the gobblers and there will be fewer to gobble.huntin wrote: ↑February 7th, 2019, 7:06 am Lots of stuff here, including gobbling activity on a hunted area and average date of nest initiation. The most relevant info to what is being discussed in this thread is in fig. 4-2, page 18. It may make your head hurt!
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/defau ... 0final.pdf
I don't think the states need to worry about gobbles, they need to be concerned with poult recruitment. If there is any evidence that poult recruitment is higher on land that isn't hunted, that would be evidence that changes in the seasons need to be considered. I have never heard of a study that in any way proved this. I don't believe that one exists or we would have been bombarded with the results.
I think we need to use common sense in setting seasons, and some places can't handle as much hunting as others. If you have so few gobblers in an area that hunting removes all of them, then it's logical that could result in some hens not being bred, and ultimately a lower poult recruitment. But if you have turkeys still gobbling after the season is over, it doesn't seem reasonable to me that the lack of a gobbler to breed the hens is a problem.
This latest theory is that some hens would only breed with the dominant gobbler, and because he gets killed they decide not to breed. I have seen no evidence presented to the public that would support this theory.
I don't think there is any doubt we have population decline in some areas. The guys doing research are under pressure to figure out why. I'm afraid that hunting is going to be blamed for it, and I'm afraid that it's happening without real evidence. "Save the habitat, save the hunt", is actually a pretty good slogan. But it takes money to do that, and it also takes giving up the opportunity to make money. Most landowners won't do that for turkeys, so the population goes down.
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
I think it would likely help because here in SC the turkeys are doing their thing starting in mid feb. by not starting the season until April 3rd a lot of hens would already have been bred and also a lot of gobblers from my experience are already starting to shut down and aren’t as vocal. I would hate that side of it but I believe it would help out the population over all. I got my 3 tom bag limit last year but I also took 14 days off of work.
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
"I don't think there is any doubt we have population decline in some areas. The guys doing research are under pressure to figure out why. I'm afraid that hunting is going to be blamed for it, and I'm afraid that it's happening without real evidence. "Save the habitat, save the hunt", is actually a pretty good slogan"
I think you are absolutely correct poorcountrypreacher. I used to teach school teachers about general principles of wildlife management so they could in turn teach their students. One of the best tools I found was the "Leaking Bucket". If you think about the causes of the turkey decline as holes in a bucket filled with water, it should be obvious that plugging the least important holes at the top of the bucket will have less impact than plugging the low holes. Research is the only way to find the low holes. If you change regulations and don't get a positive result, you've probably plugged the wrong hole.
I think you are absolutely correct poorcountrypreacher. I used to teach school teachers about general principles of wildlife management so they could in turn teach their students. One of the best tools I found was the "Leaking Bucket". If you think about the causes of the turkey decline as holes in a bucket filled with water, it should be obvious that plugging the least important holes at the top of the bucket will have less impact than plugging the low holes. Research is the only way to find the low holes. If you change regulations and don't get a positive result, you've probably plugged the wrong hole.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
I’m curious as to how they calculated “average date of nest initiation.”huntin wrote: ↑February 7th, 2019, 7:06 am Lots of stuff here, including gobbling activity on a hunted area and average date of nest initiation. The most relevant info to what is being discussed in this thread is in fig. 4-2, page 18. It may make your head hurt!
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/defau ... 0final.pdf
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
A couple of yall seem way more knowledgeable and have better ideas than the folks making the decisions here in SC.
Ultimate Predator
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Its Trumps fault....
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
x@
ever wonder where the white goes when the snow melts??
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Typically, information on this and much of the other data is obtained by trapping birds and attaching radio collars to them. They are then tracked with telemetry equipment. Their movement patterns, or lack thereof, enable researchers to make these kinds of determinations.BumbleFoot wrote: ↑February 7th, 2019, 3:23 pm I’m curious as to how they calculated “average date of nest initiation.”
For instance, if a hen moves from the roost site to a specific location for a couple of weeks, and then begins to stay at that spot with minimal movement, then that information can be used to determine both initiation of egg-laying and start of incubation. Do that with enough hen turkeys and you can determine things like "average date of nest initiation" and "average beginning date of incubation".
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Here in MS my opinion is the loss of habitat to cut overs because of our states timber practices. They can posture and do studies til they turn blue but a cutover after a year or so does not benefit turkeys.... of course I think it’s also a factor in our “new” cwd pblms with whitetail deer as well.With the turkeys it’s several years until that pine plantation matured enough to allow the flocks to move through. Don’t even get me started on the rape of hardwoods and SMzs...
“Son, Turkey HUNTING starts at 40yds and in. If you can kill him farther that’s all you’re doing- KILLING. Make him think he’s answering you, call him up, kill him closer-Man! Now that’s what it’s meant to be…” Johnnie Keel ( an Old Pro most never know)
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Lot of good stuff being said here.
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
gavobrown87 wrote: ↑February 1st, 2019, 10:49 pm http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/p ... sembly.pdf
The SC DNR has made its recommendations for changes to turkey season. You can read their full report in the link above. For southeastern hunters it’s worth the time. The studies performed will likely be referenced by other state game agencies in address the decline in turkey numbers.
Personally, I like the idea of carrying the season later into May. I’d also like the see our state develop some sort of program to incentivize hunters to trap nest predators leading up to turkey season. Maybe an extra tag to certain WMAs or discounted licenses.
Thoughts?
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If your state has houndsmen that run deer, coyotes fox or coon it makes it pretty hard for a trapper to coexist with them, they ruin the catches for fur value and usually destroy the traps or pull them and throw them in deep water, they don't seem to realize trapping also benefits them. With the price of good traps it is a losing deal for the trappers.....
I was not his father but he was my son,,MAK IV, 10-15-1993 - 4-22-2007
"Rest in Peace my Little Buddy"
"Rest in Peace my Little Buddy"
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
"Researchers also confirmed that prescribed fire had minimal direct impact on nest
and poult survival"
Interdepartmental political nonsense, right there. They always measure the effect, then explain it away. You can't measure something, then take an artificially massaged measurement and truthfully call it science.
and poult survival"
Interdepartmental political nonsense, right there. They always measure the effect, then explain it away. You can't measure something, then take an artificially massaged measurement and truthfully call it science.
Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Really a surprising amount of nuttin' in that thing. Considering how much effort they put into filling up pages you'd think they would have expanded that figure into several to make it easier to digest.huntin wrote: ↑February 7th, 2019, 7:06 am Lots of stuff here, including gobbling activity on a hunted area and average date of nest initiation. The most relevant info to what is being discussed in this thread is in fig. 4-2, page 18. It may make your head hurt!
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/defau ... 0final.pdf
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Re: South Carolina DNR recommendations for changes to turkey season
Timing on a prescribed burn is important. Unfortunately you can’t burn it “green” which leaves late winter and early spring. No, it probably doesn’t burn turkey nests then but it destroys the cover they would have in late spring. Lol, I bet those “skidders “ destroy a bunch of turkey nests too during 12mth a year timber harvesting too....howl wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2019, 8:23 am "Researchers also confirmed that prescribed fire had minimal direct impact on nest
and poult survival"
Interdepartmental political nonsense, right there. They always measure the effect, then explain it away. You can't measure something, then take an artificially massaged measurement and truthfully call it science.
“Son, Turkey HUNTING starts at 40yds and in. If you can kill him farther that’s all you’re doing- KILLING. Make him think he’s answering you, call him up, kill him closer-Man! Now that’s what it’s meant to be…” Johnnie Keel ( an Old Pro most never know)