Forcing Cone Lengthening?
- Southern Sportsman
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Forcing Cone Lengthening?
Would you recommend having this done or is it largely unnecessary? I am somewhat torn on the decision. I ask in regard to my new-to-me over under which I am turning into my new turkey gun. I will be shooting a tight barrel with [HTL load not yet selected], and a light modified choke in the other barrel with lead 6s.
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- ArkansasDon
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
all 7 seven of my shotguns have them done, 3 O&U's 3 pump guns & a sxs. Some say its not worth the money I'm a ferm believer in it.
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- Shotgun Dave
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
Good question was wondering myself !!! Hope you get lots of reply's
- GOLD HUNTER
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
i never had it done to any of my guns, but know a guy that had it done and that gun shot about the same.
if you get it do, get the right gunsmith to do it...... but i'd just save my money and get a good choke.
if you get it do, get the right gunsmith to do it...... but i'd just save my money and get a good choke.
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I agree, I think you get more bang for the buck with great ammo and the right choke.GOLD HUNTER wrote:i never had it done to any of my guns, but know a guy that had it done and that gun shot about the same.
if you get it do, get the right gunsmith to do it...... but i'd just save my money and get a good choke.
Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I had it done on my Benelli M1 super 90 by Ballistic Specialties, I'm glad I did.
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- Southern Sportsman
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I will be getting the right ammo and choke regardless. I messaged Hawglips today about getting some TSS and I am planning on getting a Sumtoy choke. In fact, I am considering sending it to him and letting him do the forcing cones and the choke. I've just heard mixed reviews. Rob Roberts is a huge advocate of it, but that's self serving because he makes $75 for ever person he convinces. So I'm seeking your unbiased opinions. I've heard that it can help a lot if your shooting lead because it reduced deformation of pellets, but with HTL the patterning advantage is negligible. But I've also heard that it can help substantially even with HTL. I've even had one guy tell me that it can hurt your pattern.
Does anyone know how much it helps with recoil reduction (which is a hard statistic to quantify I realize).
Does anyone know how much it helps with recoil reduction (which is a hard statistic to quantify I realize).
I go stubbornly into error by myself, and reach my own fallacious conclusions using my own faulty data. ~Tom Kelly
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
Get a nice choke. IMO getting that done to your shotgun is like throwing money in the trash. I had it done to one of my 870s and there was no change.
Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
If you are going to load TSS I would not bother. With the right choke, heck with the wrong choke, TSS will be all you ever need!
- ArkansasDon
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I agree, Rob does the best shotgun work, he done most of mine except a few done by Ballistic SpeciallitiesGrover wrote:I had it done on my Benelli M1 super 90 by Ballistic Specialties, I'm glad I did.
the last 2 guns Rob done for me I saw a difference just in recoil & pattern count nothing huge but was a improvement
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- Spuriosity
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I've got to think it helps with lead shot, or all the best target guns in the world wouldn't have long FCs, but with HTL I don't know. I would definitely talk to William at Sumtoy chokes. He knows an awful lot about what makes shotguns tick, and he appears to be as honest as the day is long. I don't think he will try to talk you into something that will not help.
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I would see what you have first.. Even with factory HTL loads and the wide range of chokes available, something will give you what you want.. In the event it does not, than consider permanent modifications.
Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
From talking with a barrel and choke maker, in his experience, he said that forcing cone lengthening makes little difference in patterning, but can make a difference in felt recoil. He has also seen patterning deteriorate when the forcing cone is changed, but not often.
- ArkansasDon
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I've known Rob for many many years, & not because we do business together (me camoing all his guns or what he has done for me) I saw him with owners with nothing but a stock gun w/ IC & Hastings chokes wanting him to trick everything out, Rob put their guns on his computer patterning machine and told them nothing need to be done with these gun. They have good numbers. Rob isnt out for the 75.00 or to make a buck off every gun. I saw on 1 visit he didnt sell a guy choke tube but cause that gun shoot better numbers than Rob's tube. He's a honest business man & a great friend. Rob wouldnt sell ya something your gun didnt need it.Southern Sportsman wrote:I will be getting the right ammo and choke regardless. I messaged Hawglips today about getting some TSS and I am planning on getting a Sumtoy choke. In fact, I am considering sending it to him and letting him do the forcing cones and the choke. I've just heard mixed reviews. Rob Roberts is a huge advocate of it, but that's self serving because he makes $75 for ever person he convinces. So I'm seeking your unbiased opinions. I've heard that it can help a lot if your shooting lead because it reduced deformation of pellets, but with HTL the patterning advantage is negligible. But I've also heard that it can help substantially even with HTL. I've even had one guy tell me that it can hurt your pattern.
Does anyone know how much it helps with recoil reduction (which is a hard statistic to quantify I realize).
Last edited by ArkansasDon on February 26th, 2013, 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Forcing Cone Lengthening?
If I were you I would spend every penny I had set aside for improving my shotgun on TSS. If you have the TSS, all the other stuff will be fine regardless.
I'm shooting my 20 gauge with a $14 flush fit choke and I don't even have the barrel polished and it is throwing 500 in the 20" at 40 yards with an 8x9 duplex
I'm shooting my 20 gauge with a $14 flush fit choke and I don't even have the barrel polished and it is throwing 500 in the 20" at 40 yards with an 8x9 duplex
Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
Will it help? probably. if it is a bad job it could make it worse so get someone good. shipping is expensive so I would not send one only for the forcing cone. I had one done and it shot well with tss.
What you are doing is making a smooth transistion from chamber to bore. This has got to help but to what degree may depend on the weapon. It is lenghten and polishing. I polish my whole barrel. This also helps.
What you are doing is making a smooth transistion from chamber to bore. This has got to help but to what degree may depend on the weapon. It is lenghten and polishing. I polish my whole barrel. This also helps.
Forcing Cone Lengthening?
X100000ArkansasDon wrote:I've known Rob for many many years, & not because we do business together (me camoing all his guns or what he has done for me) I saw him with owners with nothing but a stock gun w/ IC & Hastings chokes wanting him to trick everything out, Rob put their guns on his computer patterning machine and told them nothing need to be done with these gun. They have good numbers. Rob isnt out for the 75.00 or to make a buck off every gun. I saw on 1 visit he didnt sell a guy choke tube but cause that gun shoot better numbers than Rob's tube. He's a honest business man & a great friend. Rob wouldnt sell ya something your gun didnt need it.Southern Sportsman wrote:I will be getting the right ammo and choke regardless. I messaged Hawglips today about getting some TSS and I am planning on getting a Sumtoy choke. In fact, I am considering sending it to him and letting him do the forcing cones and the choke. I've just heard mixed reviews. Rob Roberts is a huge advocate of it, but that's self serving because he makes $75 for ever person he convinces. So I'm seeking your unbiased opinions. I've heard that it can help a lot if your shooting lead because it reduced deformation of pellets, but with HTL the patterning advantage is negligible. But I've also heard that it can help substantially even with HTL. I've even had one guy tell me that it can hurt your pattern.
Does anyone know how much it helps with recoil reduction (which is a hard statistic to quantify I realize).
Rob is the man. It's hard to find a man these days that is as honest and straight forward as possible. He will forego making money off someone and being honest with them vs coaxing the person into buying one if his products if its not needed.
Benelli trusts Rob's work ethic/character/skills and feels confident in slapping his name on their performance shop waterfowl and turkey guns.
I've known him for several years and have turned dozens of friends onto him and every single one of them have been more than satisfied, with many of them sending numerous guns to him
Call him and talk with him or Jonathan. You WILL NOT be disappointed
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I have to agree to a point here. I had my BPS done by William at Sumtoy. My patterns did improve but not by much but what i did notice is exactly what GLS noted, FELT RECOIL!!! The forcing cone reamer William uses is a 5" reamer that i personally made for him out of solid carbide. He told me that the longest reamer you could buy was 3" so I made him this 5" one. I made it so it can do all bores from the largest 10 ga. and 12 ga Mossbergs down to the skinny benellis. I can honestly say that my 3.5 pump kicks no more than my 3" autos now. I personally would say go for it. It's nice not to punish yourself especially while load developing. Hope this helps.GLS wrote:From talking with a barrel and choke maker, in his experience, he said that forcing cone lengthening makes little difference in patterning, but can make a difference in felt recoil. He has also seen patterning deteriorate when the forcing cone is changed, but not often.
Later Roy
Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
To add thought, i just had my 20 ga 870 worked over at Sumtoy with a lengthened forcing cone as well and will shoot 1 5/8 oz tss 9s. My thought is that it may help patterns in the fact that you're shoving 6-700 shot down that narrow tube all at one and the longer it has to form coming out of the hull may help vs it all coming out and shoving in the bbl in such a short distance. I will let yall know soon as the rain leaves us and my components come in.
I think its worth it even if all it does is even the pattern or reduce felt recoil. For $35....why not
I think its worth it even if all it does is even the pattern or reduce felt recoil. For $35....why not
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I won't get into the "does a lengthened forcing cone help or not?" discussion but personally, I don't lengthen any cones on my guns.
There are plenty of theories out in cyberspace about why some see better performance, no performance or less performance in a shotgun barrel after a forcing cone lengthening. And I have one as well:
the final polishing of the forcing cone (lengthened OR stock cone)
Either cone will "work" but if the final reaming marks or burrs exist on the forcing cone, you will have pattern problems. A good polishing AFTER lengthening a forcing cone is not always performed (and is most likely a reason why some do not see any gain (or a drop) in pattern performance).
Make sure your gunsmith polishes the cone smooth on any forcing cone you may have lengthened (if your gunsmith won't/can't polish a cone, have someone who can). It is worth the "trouble."
There are plenty of theories out in cyberspace about why some see better performance, no performance or less performance in a shotgun barrel after a forcing cone lengthening. And I have one as well:
the final polishing of the forcing cone (lengthened OR stock cone)
Either cone will "work" but if the final reaming marks or burrs exist on the forcing cone, you will have pattern problems. A good polishing AFTER lengthening a forcing cone is not always performed (and is most likely a reason why some do not see any gain (or a drop) in pattern performance).
Make sure your gunsmith polishes the cone smooth on any forcing cone you may have lengthened (if your gunsmith won't/can't polish a cone, have someone who can). It is worth the "trouble."
Last edited by Sloppy_Snood on March 13th, 2013, 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
Ok. The guy who shoots in competition, and wins, does not do it. All you need to know.
- Southern Sportsman
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
Yep. Good enough for me.
I go stubbornly into error by myself, and reach my own fallacious conclusions using my own faulty data. ~Tom Kelly
- Sloppy_Snood
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
While I certainly appreciate the vote of confidence, I must fully disclose.Johndoe wrote:Ok. The guy who shoots in competition, and wins, does not do it. All you need to know.
In "Hunter" shooting classes (stock shotguns; no barrel or chamber work), I shoot factory forcing cones (which are usualy somewhat short) as they are provided by Browning, Remington, etc.
In the "Open" shooting classes (modifications allowed but no barrel/choke over 32" and no fixed rests; 12 gauge and 20 gauge), we generally have "match chambers." These are chambers sized and machined to very tight tolerances that "match" the external measurements of a specific, fired shotshell.
What the heck does this have to do with forcing cones, right?
It means that our modified, "open class" shotguns use neither a regular or lengthened forcing cone. They use a 90° step (which is essentially the end of the chamber) with a step height that is the thickness of the plastic used to make the hull for the specific shell that is designed to be fired in that particular shotgun (hence the term "match" in match chamber).
I can tell you that match chamber pressures run higher than stock shotguns and the recoil pulse is harder, especially if the shotgun is light (sub 7 1/2 pounds) to begin with. That said, the sheer weight (mass) of the heavier "bull barrels" (commonly found on custom shotguns) tends to offset the match chamber's increased felt recoil significantly (these are usually 10 to 13 pound shotguns).
Therefore, IF (a big "if"), one were to shoot three of the "exact same shotgun" with the same weight, barrel length, and the same shotshell and the only difference being the existence of one shotgun having a "match chamber," the 2nd shotgun having a smooth short (<1 1/2") forcing cone, and the 3rd shotgun having a smooth long (<1 1/2") forcing cone, I would anticipate the immeasurable "felt recoil" to be less with the elongated forcing cone. Pattern "quality" (eveness of shot pellet distribution) may be better or worse after proper lengthened forcing cone modification but there are MANY factors that play in to all of this (pattern quality). I believe that it is nearly impossible to say which modifications, lengthened forcing cones or otherwise, impact pattern eveness most. The concept of "each gun is its own animal" is VERY much true in this regard (this is another subject related to the inherent harmonics of the machined piece of metal [the barrel]).
Just some more information to chew on...
Last edited by Sloppy_Snood on March 9th, 2013, 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Southern Sportsman
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Re: Forcing Cone Lengthening?
I appreciate all the information i can get. Thanks sloppy
I go stubbornly into error by myself, and reach my own fallacious conclusions using my own faulty data. ~Tom Kelly