20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

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BumbleFoot
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20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by BumbleFoot » July 23rd, 2017, 5:23 pm

I see post after post extolling the virtues of TSS in sub gauges. Believe me, I get it. It's what I do too.

What I don't understand are those that blanketly deride use of TSS in the big bores. It's most often characterized as "wasteful" or "overkill." If you're slinging 2 or more ounces of "heavy stone" at a turkey, I generally agree.

To those of you with more experience than me (that's most everybody), what's the diff in shooting a light 12 ga load (say 1-5/8 oz) versus a heavy 20 ga load of equal shot size, volume and weight? For the sake of argument, let's say you've got a sweet, light weight, and compact 12 ga so ease of carry isn't a factor.

Wouldn't the 12 produce a longer shot string and, in theory, produce a "better" (more even) pattern? Seems too like it would produce lower relative pressure and could be sped up (I.e, loaded hotter) relative to the otherwise equivalent 20 ga load.

Just asking, cause I don't know... :scratch:

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by el diablo » July 23rd, 2017, 5:53 pm

I would say you are right on all accounts. You would have more room to speed up the load and still be in safe pressures.
I don't know the shot strings would compare.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Sloppy_Snood » July 23rd, 2017, 6:54 pm

No. Shot string on larger bore diameters would result in shorter shot strings (if all else was held equal).
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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by BumbleFoot » July 23rd, 2017, 7:35 pm

Sloppy_Snood wrote:
July 23rd, 2017, 6:54 pm
No. Shot string on larger bore diameters would result in shorter shot strings (if all else was held equal).
Gotcha. Is a shorter shot string/column better, worse or of no matter?

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by GLS » July 23rd, 2017, 7:55 pm

Length of shot string is meaningless in turkey hunting. What's the difference between shooing 1 5/8 oz out of a 20 versus a 12? While there are some heavy 20 gauges there is no light 12 gauge that weighs less than the lightest 20 gauge. Gil

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Sloppy_Snood » July 23rd, 2017, 8:17 pm

Doesn't matter since turkey hunting is effectively a sport of shooting a slow moving/nearly stationary target.

While everyone has their opinions on why they shoot TSS, it really boils down to the boring concept of carrying an ultralight shotgun.
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"If you are going to achieve excellence in big things, you develop the habit in little matters. Excellence is not an exception, it is a prevailing attitude."- General Colin Powell, Ret.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by hoobilly » July 23rd, 2017, 8:23 pm

Sloppy_Snood wrote:
July 23rd, 2017, 8:17 pm
Doesn't matter since turkey hunting is effectively a sport of shooting a slow moving/nearly stationary target.

While everyone has their opinions on why they shoot TSS, it really boils down to the boring concept of carrying an ultralight shotgun.
thats why I like the Benelli

never mind the click :LMAO:

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Spuriosity » July 24th, 2017, 7:25 am

I shoot 1&5/8 from my 12 ga Beretta 586 UL (listed at 5 lb 14 oz, but mine actually weighs 6.75 with B-Square Cantilever rib mount, FF II, and sling).

As others have said, the shot string will be shorter from a 12 vs a 20 with equal payload weight, but that is a non-issue with a stationary target.

I don't hot rod my loads; they are 1100 fps. TSS 9s don't need the extra speed to increase lethality.

One advantage to loading in the 12 is the availability of cushioned wads designed for HTL shot, eliminating the need for complicated wad columns with loads of felts and/or cork. No need for gas seals that need their holes plugged and no worries about pellets scrubbing through wad petals or wads that shatter upon ignition. The more generous bore also reduces pressure allowing you to use much smaller doses of faster burning powder to achieve the same velocity. I get 1100 fps with only 23.5 gr of powder, compared to the massive doses of the slowest available powders required to do the same in the 20 ga, while maintaining pressures under 10K psi. Less powder means less recoil and cost.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Shooter » July 24th, 2017, 8:23 am

Spuriosity wrote:
July 24th, 2017, 7:25 am
I shoot 1&5/8 from my 12 ga Beretta 586 UL (listed at 5 lb 14 oz, but mine actually weighs 6.75 with B-Square Cantilever rib mount, FF II, and sling).

As others have said, the shot string will be shorter from a 12 vs a 20 with equal payload weight, but that is a non-issue with a stationary target.

I don't hot rod my loads; they are 1100 fps. TSS 9s don't need the extra speed to increase lethality.

One advantage to loading in the 12 is the availability of cushioned wads designed for HTL shot, eliminating the need for complicated wad columns with loads of felts and/or cork. No need for gas seals that need their holes plugged and no worries about pellets scrubbing through wad petals or wads that shatter upon ignition. The more generous bore also reduces pressure allowing you to use much smaller doses of faster burning powder to achieve the same velocity. I get 1100 fps with only 23.5 gr of powder, compared to the massive doses of the slowest available powders required to do the same in the 20 ga, while maintaining pressures under 10K psi. Less powder means less recoil and cost.
This!

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by BumbleFoot » July 24th, 2017, 10:25 am

Shooter wrote:
July 24th, 2017, 8:23 am
Spuriosity wrote:
July 24th, 2017, 7:25 am
I shoot 1&5/8 from my 12 ga Beretta 586 UL (listed at 5 lb 14 oz, but mine actually weighs 6.75 with B-Square Cantilever rib mount, FF II, and sling).

As others have said, the shot string will be shorter from a 12 vs a 20 with equal payload weight, but that is a non-issue with a stationary target.

I don't hot rod my loads; they are 1100 fps. TSS 9s don't need the extra speed to increase lethality.

One advantage to loading in the 12 is the availability of cushioned wads designed for HTL shot, eliminating the need for complicated wad columns with loads of felts and/or cork. No need for gas seals that need their holes plugged and no worries about pellets scrubbing through wad petals or wads that shatter upon ignition. The more generous bore also reduces pressure allowing you to use much smaller doses of faster burning powder to achieve the same velocity. I get 1100 fps with only 23.5 gr of powder, compared to the massive doses of the slowest available powders required to do the same in the 20 ga, while maintaining pressures under 10K psi. Less powder means less recoil and cost.
This!
Thanks for the insightful and informed posts! I'm taking from this that there can in fact be advantages to shooting small diameter TSS out of a big bore over the same out of a sub gauge. And, it's not always wasteful or overkill to do so.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Grunt-N-Gobble » July 25th, 2017, 8:11 pm

Wasteful and overkill is only in the eyes of others and are only opinions.
I shoot a 2oz load of TSS in a 12ga and see no reason to change.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by bowhunter2k9 » July 25th, 2017, 8:57 pm

Grunt-N-Gobble wrote:Wasteful and overkill is only in the eyes of others and are only opinions.
I shoot a 2oz load of TSS in a 12ga and see no reason to change.
I agree completely. I don't care if you're using a 4 oz 10 gauge load or a 1/4 oz 410 load. Long as you're getting it done.

I myself started reloading with my 12 gauge and immediately got an awesome 2.5 oz load tweaked to shoot 7x8's. But this year I bought a youth 870 20 gauge and now shoot a 1 5/8 oz 9's load.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by hawglips » July 26th, 2017, 3:57 am

One of the intriguing things about TSS is not only the other-league performance you can get with it, but how you can do so many things with it. My first load with it was a 1-5/8 oz 2-3/4" 12 ga load. One of my latest is a 1-5/8 oz 28 ga load. It's crazy to think you have the capability of 1-5/8 oz loads in 5 different gauges...

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Sloppy_Snood » July 26th, 2017, 7:56 am

hawglips wrote:
July 26th, 2017, 3:57 am
It's crazy to think you have the capability of 1-5/8 oz loads in 5 different gauges...
Spot on Hal. :thumbup:
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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by ncturkey » September 6th, 2017, 9:22 am

Spuriosity wrote:
July 24th, 2017, 7:25 am
I shoot 1&5/8 from my 12 ga Beretta 586 UL (listed at 5 lb 14 oz, but mine actually weighs 6.75 with B-Square Cantilever rib mount, FF II, and sling).

As others have said, the shot string will be shorter from a 12 vs a 20 with equal payload weight, but that is a non-issue with a stationary target.

I don't hot rod my loads; they are 1100 fps. TSS 9s don't need the extra speed to increase lethality.

One advantage to loading in the 12 is the availability of cushioned wads designed for HTL shot, eliminating the need for complicated wad columns with loads of felts and/or cork. No need for gas seals that need their holes plugged and no worries about pellets scrubbing through wad petals or wads that shatter upon ignition. The more generous bore also reduces pressure allowing you to use much smaller doses of faster burning powder to achieve the same velocity. I get 1100 fps with only 23.5 gr of powder, compared to the massive doses of the slowest available powders required to do the same in the 20 ga, while maintaining pressures under 10K psi. Less powder means less recoil and cost.
Is this a 3" 12 gauge load you are referring too? Thanks
Mike

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Spuriosity » September 6th, 2017, 2:00 pm

ncturkey wrote:
September 6th, 2017, 9:22 am
Spuriosity wrote:
July 24th, 2017, 7:25 am
I shoot 1&5/8 from my 12 ga Beretta 586 UL (listed at 5 lb 14 oz, but mine actually weighs 6.75 with B-Square Cantilever rib mount, FF II, and sling).

As others have said, the shot string will be shorter from a 12 vs a 20 with equal payload weight, but that is a non-issue with a stationary target.

I don't hot rod my loads; they are 1100 fps. TSS 9s don't need the extra speed to increase lethality.

One advantage to loading in the 12 is the availability of cushioned wads designed for HTL shot, eliminating the need for complicated wad columns with loads of felts and/or cork. No need for gas seals that need their holes plugged and no worries about pellets scrubbing through wad petals or wads that shatter upon ignition. The more generous bore also reduces pressure allowing you to use much smaller doses of faster burning powder to achieve the same velocity. I get 1100 fps with only 23.5 gr of powder, compared to the massive doses of the slowest available powders required to do the same in the 20 ga, while maintaining pressures under 10K psi. Less powder means less recoil and cost.
Is this a 3" 12 gauge load you are referring too? Thanks
No, 2.75".

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by ncturkey » September 6th, 2017, 3:47 pm

Cool
Mike

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by jhogue » January 16th, 2018, 1:43 pm

Spuriosity wrote:
September 6th, 2017, 2:00 pm
ncturkey wrote:
September 6th, 2017, 9:22 am
Spuriosity wrote:
July 24th, 2017, 7:25 am
I shoot 1&5/8 from my 12 ga Beretta 586 UL (listed at 5 lb 14 oz, but mine actually weighs 6.75 with B-Square Cantilever rib mount, FF II, and sling).

As others have said, the shot string will be shorter from a 12 vs a 20 with equal payload weight, but that is a non-issue with a stationary target.

I don't hot rod my loads; they are 1100 fps. TSS 9s don't need the extra speed to increase lethality.

One advantage to loading in the 12 is the availability of cushioned wads designed for HTL shot, eliminating the need for complicated wad columns with loads of felts and/or cork. No need for gas seals that need their holes plugged and no worries about pellets scrubbing through wad petals or wads that shatter upon ignition. The more generous bore also reduces pressure allowing you to use much smaller doses of faster burning powder to achieve the same velocity. I get 1100 fps with only 23.5 gr of powder, compared to the massive doses of the slowest available powders required to do the same in the 20 ga, while maintaining pressures under 10K psi. Less powder means less recoil and cost.
Is this a 3" 12 gauge load you are referring too? Thanks
No, 2.75".
This load and fast vs slow burning powder part is interesting to me. I'm currently shooting one of Hal's loads and I'm shooting "Lil Gun because I originally wanted to just buy one powder, but I'm shooting over 40 grains of powder. I didn't realize how big of a difference different powder types made in relation to how much you need. I know your load would be lighter recoiling than mine for the reason that is a slightly smaller load (1 5/8 oz. vs 1 3/4 oz) and velocity is slower (1100 vs a little over 1200). How substantial is the recoil reduction using this 1 5/8, 1100 FPS round?

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by howl » January 16th, 2018, 3:58 pm

I find it helpful to understand things when I can see how the factors relate in a model. Recoil formulae: http://saami.org/PubResources/GunRecoilFormulae.pdf

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by KPcalls » January 16th, 2018, 5:30 pm

I loaded three different 2.0 oz. 12 gauge recipes that were shot out of three different guns involving 11 different chokes and none of those would even come close to the 1 5/8 load in the 20 gauges I shot it in. I have to load 2.25oz's of TSS in my 12 just to equal the numbers in my 20.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by jhogue » January 16th, 2018, 5:40 pm

howl wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 3:58 pm
I find it helpful to understand things when I can see how the factors relate in a model. Recoil formulae: http://saami.org/PubResources/GunRecoilFormulae.pdf
That just made my head hurt....

Thanks though.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by BumbleFoot » January 16th, 2018, 7:49 pm

Since originating this post several months ago, I’ve loaded and shot a few 1-5/8 oz loads through my 12’s. Let’s just say I’m back in love with the big bore. Simpler loads, more balanced and consistent patterns than those I was getting by trying to squeeze the same amount of shot through a sub gauge choke. As Spur or another noted earlier, the only reason to take the sub gauge is for the sake of weight. I’ll still take my pocket guns but the 12 is back in the game.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by hoobilly » January 17th, 2018, 7:06 pm

I don’t have a 410. I would get one if my daughter was 6 and small. But I love all my turkey guns. From the 10 down to the 28. But I haven’t killed with the 28 yet.

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by Spuriosity » January 18th, 2018, 8:25 am

[/quote]

This load and fast vs slow burning powder part is interesting to me. I'm currently shooting one of Hal's loads and I'm shooting "Lil Gun because I originally wanted to just buy one powder, but I'm shooting over 40 grains of powder. I didn't realize how big of a difference different powder types made in relation to how much you need. I know your load would be lighter recoiling than mine for the reason that is a slightly smaller load (1 5/8 oz. vs 1 3/4 oz) and velocity is slower (1100 vs a little over 1200). How substantial is the recoil reduction using this 1 5/8, 1100 FPS round?
[/quote]

Assuming 70 grains in each load for the wad, buffer, etc. and a 7.5 lb gun, the 1.625 load at 1100 fps with 23.5 gr of powder generates 38 ft-lbs.

The 1.75 oz load at 1200 fps with 40 gr of powder generates 57 ft-lbs.

Also, here is the link to an "easy" recoil calculator that won't make your head hurt.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

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Re: 20 ga. 1-5/8 TSS vs. Same in 12 ga.

Post by howl » January 18th, 2018, 9:23 am

Another difference in loads is the material used to build the shot column. The weights of all the ejecta contribute to recoil. Something simple with just a shot cup and OSC will kick less than something built up with cards and cushions.

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